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I am having a panicky moment here and would like some feedback. I have had a male spiritual director for many years. He is an older, gay gentlemen who has been a wonderful mentor.
In the many years of my husbands addictions and into the early years of his recovery, he was jealous and very suspicious that I was or would have an affair. I never gave him any reason to get all nutso, but he created scenarios, tormented himself and was just plain difficult to live with. Work related contacts were uncomfortable for me. Anyway, he has known about this mentor, initially stated he was ok with our contacts, yet behaved in ways that indicated he wasn't really ok. After some pretty ugly accusations several years ago, we agreed that this relationship could continue, but he did not want to know about the calls. We talk about every 6 weeks by phone. I have felt for years that I have to hide these conversations so not to waken the sleeping dragon in my husband. He does not ask and I do not offer.
Well today, I had a call scheduled at 2pm. My husband was home, as he had a job interview scheduled at 2pm. I was feeling anxious anyway that I might still be on the phone when he came home after the interview. Well, there was a mix up in the time, resulting in my mentor calling our home at 1. My husband saw the caller ID, said his name and looked at me searchingly. I was not going to get into any discussion prior to my husbands interview, so I shrugged my shoulders.
So, I am quivering...I will talk to him when he gets home. I don't want to hide. I am sort of spinning here and am having flashbacks of ugly days gone by. If it is the right thing to do, I will stop the spiritual direction (he is a sponsor, too). I don't want to take action, though, like I used to...to keep the peace. I am listening now for your feedback, questions, etc, so I can work this through before he gets home and we have our discussion. Help, please.
You have been very honest here, and perhaps this is an opportunity for you both to share your feelings about the mentoring honestly as well? No controlling (says she in her most controlling voice!!).
Is there any reason, apart from snoozing dragons, why you should hide these conversations? They must be important and helpful for you? It doesn't sound like there is any need to hide them from what you've shared here and it makes me sad to think that you have felt that you needed to all this time. I completely understand though, and would probably do the same.
I hope that you choose to do what is right for you and your on-going peace and serenity.
I wonder, with all his recovery, if your husband feels more secure these days and more able to accept your mentor?
If I was in your husband's shoes I might wonder why I've not known that the mentoring has been ongoing and I might be having a few ghastly flashbacks of my own.
I am picturing you being your usual loving honest self - no guilt, no self judgement, just care for each other (the insecurity clearly is not about you, so what does he need from you to feel more secure?) and respecting of your own needs and wants as well.
I hope the job interview went well.
Thinking of you and sending loving vibes your way.
Take what you want and leave the rest Paula - I trust your judgement completely
Thank you Milkwood. Yes, he did know that the spiritual direction had been ongoing, and, it cold be that since we both have a few more years of recovery behind us, we can discuss this more openly. I am surprised at my reactions, it was like PTSD. And my armpits are all sweaty, too. Also, I did not share the conversations because my hubbie asked me not to share them. These kinds of issues are in need of healing, still and, I believe, that is why it has arisen. It is a deep seated, pervasive issue that we have taken on a little bit at a time Guess it is time to take on a bigger chunk.
-- Edited by PP on Monday 17th of November 2014 02:51:41 PM
I'm sorry those old memories came back and clobbered my friend like that. I'd love to shoo them away if I could.
I love the way that you recognise these things Paula.
Hi Paula I have thought about your dilemma and would just like to share that having a male spiritual director is not unusual. Most churches have male ministers and priests and they act as spiritual directors to their members. I hear that you have talked this over with hubby and although he had some reservations, he agreed that this interactionwas beneficial to your spiritual health.
I certainly would not cancel this relationship but I am concerned that fear about your husband's reaction may cloud your ability to connect with this person in a healthy spiritual manner. I guess I would say the serenity prayer, and speak to hubby once again restating my position and motives.
Good luck
There are 3 steps that come to mind for me - 1, 3 and 11. There have been times in my life when what my loved ones wanted, I couldn't want because I was very aware of a HP who knew me, knew my purpose and knew the way I needed to go. Although this isn't the same situation, both my parents absolutely hated the work I did. My Mom tried to talk me out of it before I did it. My Dad couldn't understand why after all the years he had worked and slaved to keep his kids out of a crummy neighborhood with very sick people why I would work in the neighborhood I did with the people I did. My answer to both of them was basically the same: It is a matter of faith for me. It is something you'll have to talk over with God because it is God who has guided me to the work. I don't know if this is true for you, too. I do know we are on a spiritual journey that you take very seriously and I know you'll know what you need to know and do what you need to do. You are very good at listening and responding to your HP.
Keep it simple if you can, feelings are not facts. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Just like you didnt cause your husbands alcoholism, you cant conrol and didnt cause his insecurities and trust issues. These belong to him. I learned that to tip toe around someone is to deny my own truth. The truth is the truth, your husbands reaction to the truth is his to work through. Healthy boundaries will help. If he gets angry or irrational, use your tools, say im sorry you feel that way. That is not taking the blame but still showing respect for his feelings. If he becomes unreasonable or angry then remove yourself from the room or go for a walk, tell him you wont listen to accusations and tantrums. In my experience these situations arise until we nip them In the bud healthily.
Just saw the second part of your second message and I agree - as I read your message I was thinking wow, this is a good opportunity and there is lots of positive in it as well as the old scary stuff.
Oh PP I am holding you up right now in my thoughts. I am so glad you came here and I see this as a growing opportunity for your marriage. Open honest conversation has always been my first go to and I have never regretted it, even though I hasn't always gone great at first. Say what you mean, mean what you say and don't say it mean. I used to be afraid and would avoid some hard conversations, but in the end when all was said and done it was so freeing to have an understanding and not feel I had to hide anything about myself. I pray all goes well and know we are all here for you! Sending you love, support and prayers!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
I guess I'm late to the party on this, but I agree with everyone above anyway. Like my bad moment this weekend, hopefully your husband has matured and can deal with this now. Besides, it seems pretty difficult to have an affair with a gay gentleman over the phone. It also seems hard to have meaningful spiritual dialogue, but perhaps you have the connection from a previous more connected time.
Kenny
-- Edited by KennyFenderjazz on Tuesday 18th of November 2014 04:34:56 AM
Still listening I opted to stay quiet for now, this is my stuff, my response, my reactions to my projections and history. Oh these impish things keep popping up when we least expect them....something more here for me to learn. I will keep listening to you all and my HP.
Thank you Milkwood. Yes, he did know that the spiritual direction had been ongoing, and, it cold be that since we both have a few more years of recovery behind us, we can discuss this more openly. I am surprised at my reactions, it was like PTSD. And my armpits are all sweaty, too. Also, I did not share the conversations because my hubbie asked me not to share them. These kinds of issues are in need of healing, still and, I believe, that is why it has arisen. It is a deep seated, pervasive issue that we have taken on a little bit at a time Guess it is time to take on a bigger chunk.
-- Edited by PP on Monday 17th of November 2014 02:51:41 PM
Hey PP, sounds to me like a ptsd episode...after you described some FOO issues, was your dad scary like that??? like u have to explain yourself at every turn??? and if this were me, I would have an honest, open chat w/hubby, if this mentor really helps you, then hubby needs to understand that HES your man, mentor is your MENTOR and nothing else.......i know for me a lot of my current anxiety moments w/folks who might have an issue over something totally innocent on my part, goes BACK....I hope i am making sense.....you have been doing self discovery stuff and this could be a trigger of sorts, husb. may be totally "ok" this go around but b/c of the past and add to that your self discovery stuff, maybe??? some unfinished business with the past???? at any rate, a good honest talk w/hubby, i see should happen....the more open I am with stuff, the better things are....HUGS
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I guess I can understand his insecurities. When I was new to alanon and dating someone in the other program I worried that they were discussing me with their sponsor and felt ill at ease when I'd run into their sponsor. I wondered what they knew about me, thought of me etc. Now I'm with someone in the other program and literally tell him tell your sponsor whatever you need to that's what he's there for... to help you grow in your recovery. It took years for me to get to that place of not taking it personally.
I guess I could speculate with a few basic possibilities for your hubby's discomfort. Aside from wondering if he's being talked about; he might be feeling a sense of inadequacy because you're going to someone other than him. He may just be feeling somehow left out.
I don't think you need to change or forfeit your relationship with your spiritual advisor. I just think we reach a point in our recovery where we truly do own our lives and if the ones we love are feeling a little insecure well... it doesn't really take from us to give them a little extra attention. Maybe if he brings up your phone call, acknowledge and not minimize it's importance and help to you personally but show more interest at that moment in knowing about his interview. This would quietly make him the priority of the moment rather than the conversation you had with your spiritual advisor. I don't think you have to overcompensate because you're doing something he doesn't like. I just think when we love someone we can have compassion even when we feel their thinking is unreasonable or irrational. If he's been looking for a job, he's likely under stress and experiencing tough questions and even rejection. In my humble opinion, when we're with someone they need to know we're with them and vice versa. A male friend once said to me men are simple creatures. I think I'm understanding that more where I use to complicate things big discussions where a hug or better yet an honest compliment about him was what was needed. Life's short and I'm still teachable. I've tried it my friend's way and in this case anyway, "the easier softer way" is better.
It's ok that you have your relationship with your spiritual advisor and continue even though your hubby doesn't like it. He doesn't like it but he does accept it. Maybe he loves you enough to put your feelings before his own since the calls are beneficial to you. That would be a good quality in him and reason to be grateful.
Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling here lol Take what you liked and leave the rest. (((hugs)))) TT
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Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.
((PP)) You've received great advice. I can appreciate your rock and hard place- do your best to stay true to yourself and speak from your heart. I would also like to think that relationships have enough compassion to overcome some differences. Sending prayers.
When I first got into Al-Anon recovery and listened to the suggestions regarding sponsorship...male on male, woman on woman I came to understand...over time. Before the overtime period happened I chose a woman as my first sponsor...Oppositional Defiant Disorder is one of my mental/behavioral diagnoses and I used it...shouldn't have for some of the reasons you cite here and more. The good that came from it was that she pointed me toward my first male sponsor and that relationship was God send for both of us. I learned the reasons why the suggestion of men on men; women on women was so important. The different emotional mental physical social processes almost always happen which, for me dilute the outcome. I have sponsored several women temporarily after 10 years or more of recovery and I always stressed temporary and during that time they were to seek out a female sponsor. Additionally I stressed I would only take them to the 4th step and not the 5th...they were to carry on after the 4th with the female sponsor.
After 27 years of separation from my first sponsor she located me and we started to correspond openly on the internet and then she announced a trip to Hilo, Hawaii for a vacation with her husband. The relationship and all of its memories were still there and when we, all four went to lunch together I focused more on communicating with her husband because I could read his face and body language...he was uncomfortable some until he left. She wanted a picture of she and I alone together and that happened while I found no real need for it because of all of the time that had passed without contact and knowing that after she left further contact would also rarely occur.
Yes she was my sponsor and the male/female dependency had been set up. It's okay now because I learned my lesson. My wife? She needs no further proof of my fidelity because she is "the" female in my life and I love it when she has no doubt of that... Just saying... for me. (((((hugs)))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 18th of November 2014 12:19:16 AM
Well PP ... I am really interested to see how this turns out!!! My body was shuttering through the whole post so I must need to learn as well.
After all the talk about enabling, is validating an alcoholics feelings "enabling?"
Or can they have healthy relationships...where validating feelings is important? Just acknowledging you listened and do not agree.
I don't know but after Jerry's post I don't see this as a his issue or my issue discussion. I see it as where are we as couple going to establish relationship boundaries with others.
I guess I also see it this way boundaries are suppose to be flexible. They can move to independence so that they don't become enmeshed or if a safety issue is involved or they can become more relaxed to promote intimacy.
It was sure ambitious of me to think I could (emphasis on I) work this through in an hour as I so desperately wanted to do yesterday. Each one of you has given me something to breathe in, to consider. Whatever action I choose, to the best of my ability to hear Gods guidance, I desire my choice to be Gods will, not mine, not my husband's, not my mentor's, not anyone's. This gets tricky to hear in the midst of the codependent chatterI don't have the great big cosmic picture; yet, I am getting the bigger picture of why I responded the way I did. Neshema, your post had me take a closer look at my FOO and, as before, I felt some of the feelings I had around painful memories. I am seeing my stuff I brought into my marriage, my projections onto my husband and, honestly some of his projections, too.
This is gettin' messy. If I were a cartoonist, I would draw a cartoon of me standing in my gut with those grreen rubbery waders on, slopping through the green sludge looking for the plug so I could pull it.
Anyway, thank you all for being the earthly voice of my HP....
Oh Paula, the visual on that slopping through green sludge is priceless, only because I can visualize it myself so well! I think you are seeing this as a place where you can explore further into your own recovery. My sponsor has always told me that we are always recovering and always discovering things about ourselves until the day we leave this world. You are learning that you have some more things to work through and that's a good thing because it means you're human and that you love yourself enough to search out the answers for yourself. HUGS!
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
PP, you're in good company as there are many of us still trudging through the sludge. Today, someone I don't know well did me a huge favor and called me out on my behavior - and what I thought was exemplary, was me responding to someone with my old stuff from someone else... just sneaked in, unbeknownst. I'm still uncovering triggers and patterns that no longer serve me. I was fortunate to be able to correct myself and then be able to interact more productively....still sludging along....
Andromeda said it perfectly in her ESH loving yourself enough to continue your growth until we leave this planet! Great topic, great ESH, this is why I love our MIP family. I have been backsliding in my program and in my haste have forgotten to put on my al-anon toolbelt before rishing out the door at 6 am. I am reminded by this of the importance of time for self love and self care. Thank you PP for this, sloughing through the sludge party with you here! Sending you love and support!
__________________
Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
Guess it is time to take on a bigger chunk.
I don't have the great big cosmic picture; yet, I am getting the bigger picture of why I responded the way I did. Neshema, your post had me take a closer look at my FOO and, as before, I felt some of the feelings I had around painful memories. I am seeing my stuff I brought into my marriage, my projections onto my husband and, honestly some of his projections, too.
Play-absolutely count me in!