What might happen if... - Al-Anon Family Group

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

What might happen if...

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Thoughts can be the beginnings of wonderful actions/behaviors/beliefs....shifts in paradigm. We once believed the earth was flat. Each time I read the statistics I have a mini second of fear which is accompanied by the thought "I wonder when he will begin to use again".

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

This is true. I know if they ever get to an AA meeting, the odds go up. If they get a month sober the odds go up. A year...the odds go up.

The success rate for AA is 100 percent for people who really want it and work the program the way it is designed.

Similar to alanon - if you work it like it's been laid out, you will get better.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

G2B I agree

Actually alanon is all about keeping the focus on ourselves, not projecting, living one day at a time and trusting HP .

The Alanon Traditions clearly point out that this is a Spiritual program and we have no opinion on outside issues . The recovery rate in AA is definitely an outside issue and has no place or foundation in the alanon program .

The message of both AA and alanon is that there is hope and help and that it works if we work it. It is that simple.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

hotrod wrote:
G2B I agree

Actually alanon is all about keeping the focus on ourselves, not projecting, living one day at a time and trusting HP .

The Alanon Traditions clearly point out that this is a Spiritual program and we have no opinion on outside issues . The recovery rate in AA is definitely an outside issue and has no place or foundation in the alanon program .

The message of both AA and alanon is that there is hope and help and that it works if we work it. It is that simple.

i agree with this...If i sat and wondered with niece ...was she gonna relapse, or when brother #1, my favorite, is gonna get drunk again, I am not focusing on me and my program.....it is what it is (brothers and niece) i didn't cause, can't control, never gonna cure, so why even think about it...i know for me in close relationships i care not to be with folks that are recovering from substance abuse b/c i have had to much heartache from it and won't "go there" again,..that is my alanon which has taught me who I am and what I want out of life...what i will accept/not accept.... but that is just me taking care of me, choosing what i want/don't want but really alanon is about me, for me, to help me, to focus on me, its the ultimate in detachment which means what is outside of alanon or coda is not my business...Be it statistics or a human being, if it is not alanon and acca and coda, all of which i work, then it is not for me to ponder or worry about........and Betty's last sentence says what I feel...there is HOPE...HELP.....and they CAN turn their lives around if they CHOOSE like am CHOOSING recovery for my disease of codependence..................

FANTASTIC post, Grateful......

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I wonder if you are referring my quoting the statistics I often mention on these boards.

The reason I quote them is because I had that sunny optimistic outlook when I first got involved with my A. I thought most A's recovered and I just wanted him to turn that corner and all would be well. I put my life on hold thinking that was just about to happen. When it didn't happen yet, I couldn't understand why my A wouldn't take this easy step when so many A's were out there recovering.

I didn't understand the power of addiction at all. I didn't understand that the odds were against my A recovering. So I put in six years and had a child with my A. He did go into recovery a number of times. Each time I thought, "Great, this is it! Here we go!" But then he'd relapse. It is now 20 years later and he is still drinking. His drinking is not the consequence of any failure of my optimism. If my optimism in those days had kept him from drinking, he would have stopped years ago.

The reason I cite the statistics is because I wish someone had told me the truth when I was starting out on this journey. If I had realized that fewer than half of A's get to longterm sobriety (at the most optimistic, the number is up to one quarter), I would not have waited so long. Part of my waiting was codependence, but part of it was that I seriously thought that recovery was easy and that most A's recovered. I thought it was like learning to drive or something. You start, you do it. A few people have more trouble, but they try harder and they do it.

So that's why I tell people what I wish someone had told me. That doesn't mean their loved one won't achieve longterm sobriety, because even at 15%, there are so many alcoholics that that means thousands do. But it suggests they should not put everything else on hold waiting for their A to start recovery. And they should not underestimate the likelihood that their A will not get to longterm sobriety. I think the truth is important and will do as much to help people lead good lives as optimism. Just my view, of course - take what helps and leave the rest.

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

My AH is telling me to quit being so negative. I have a hard time being positive, because even though AH claims he hasn't drank since April, he is still showing very irresponsible behaviors. No job, etc. I guess it depends on the person. I think some people exhibit good recovery...they go to AA and they show changed behaviors and actually care about their family. I am not seeing a light at the end of my tunnel as far as AH changing. So I guess I have a skeptical view of recovery right now. That goes for my own recovery as well.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

No, Mattie, my thread wasn't a direct reference to your posts. I have seen statistics quoted at our board multiple times or dismal reports by various folks and I can't tell you who they are. I just know that it concerns me when those statistics come out and dismal reports come out on our board that can be more than discouraging or disheartening. Since we do deal with alcoholism and its affects on us and on our loved ones, I did want to ask the question of what might happen if we focus a little differently than can sometimes happen? I stopped going to one Al-Anon meeting several years ago because there was one longtime member who never attended a meeting without sharing that somebody else in her husband's AA membership died. Then, she'd stand with eyes cast downward with this look of sadness and sorrow as if there was so little hope - even for folks in the fellowship - as 25 or 30 AA'ers in the next room laughed, clapped and enjoyed themselves together. After a year of it, I moved on to another group. I can't guess at her motives and I do know I don't want to do that myself. It may be an outside issue and it is still brought up in recovery circles and on our board. I felt strongly enough about this today that I felt the need to express my concern.

NLG - Your AH isn't in recovery so I can certainly understand how you see it from the position of someone who isn't experiencing her AH making any progress.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 20th of October 2014 11:52:48 AM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 20th of October 2014 11:55:08 AM

Flower49 · Senior Member

I have a skeptical view of recovery a lot these days. Most of that I attribute to the place my husband is living and the way the program is presented and structured. I can tell every single one of you they don't teach any kind of optimism in that joint. It's all about bashing, criticizing, promoting immaturity with punishments such as having to write 100 sentences of something you did that was considered naughty with your right hand and your left hand, degradation of women....there is not one philosophy of AA promoted in the place. So I don't really feel like my AH will actually remain sober once he leaves the 3/4 way house. I feel that way because he isn't even going to AA meetings other than ones that are held for just the organization. The whole purpose of him being in this transition place is to further his exposure to as many AA members etc. Hell, is assigned sponsor rarely even returns calls to him. So sometimes I have a hard time swallowing the kool-aid. I don't always "fake" a sunny outlook to my AH because that is what he wants to hear and because he wants me to pretend everything is all better now that he is a recovering saint once again.

I knew the truth about the relapse rates when we started this journey last year. My AH's drug of choice is next to impossible to beat. I do know now that I don't have to worry about him relapsing, of course I think about it from time to time, but because of Al-anon I know it's not mine to worry about. I know what my boundaries are, what choices I can make today. I don't carry all the guilt and shame anymore either. For me, the relapse stats are extremely important for me to know, that way I don't fake my own-self into believing anymore falsehoods and see the forest for the trees a whole lot quicker.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I dont like or trust statistics much either especially when, aa being anonymous, it must be almost impossible to get accurate figures. In your country, usa, dont they force aa on people who are In the legal system? So to me that is inevitably going to show high rates of failure. We all know, you cant force someone to get sober and remain sober. We have all tried for years and years.

ive learned statistics can look any way you want to look depending on your motives. If the statistics come from a government agency then the agenda could be a reduction in spending in this area. Im not saying thats happening but unless the numbers and facts are released from a credible amd Impartial source then they are usually biased and unreliable.

Having said that, when someone comes here in denial, pretence is a huge part of life so some hard facts can be helpful, dismal and disappointing but helpful all the same. I think there is a place for hard, cold facts. In fact I prefer the truth to anything else and buying into fictional recovery can trap women for years and in turn poor kids need to step back onto that crappy merrygoround.

Sometimes, when I see numbers, I think of my ex and my heart does sink because I think of my kids, hes 2 years sober, hes built up a good relationship with my kids and if he drinks I think they will be really hurt. Il hurt for them but I wont let his drinking or not have an impact on me. Im almost neutral when it comes to wishing one way or another for him. My kids though, it would hurt them and then I would hurt and most likely hate him again.

Interesting topicthanks grateful, love these ones that make me think and take me further.x

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

I am meeting with my sponsors husband for lunch today, for those who don't know my story she recently passed away. He has been an AA sponsor for longer than I have been on this earth and I like his statistic. The ones that truly dig in like he did, can succeed, he has almost more years sober than not now. It takes dedication and hard work just like for us al-anoners to focus on ourselves and fix what we can. Sending you all love and support on your journey's!

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

The power of positive thinking is great - and why not assume that one's alcoholic is going to beat their battle with the disease of alcoholism. We do the same with other diseases, even when the odds are slim. What the stats say does not stop me hoping and believing in the best possible outcome - I'm codependent after all!

IMHO, the stats can help one realise that it is not worth playing a waiting game though - sort of a pointer to getting on with our own lives.

In the meantime.Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life. ta, ta, ta ta, ti, ta, di, da!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

elcee: In my City, there is something called Drug Court wherein the offender can choose to take the medicine or go to prison. It has a good success rate. In our State's prison system, attendance at AA is "optional." I agree we can't force folks to get sober and honestly, I'd rather see prison attendance of AA to be mandatory for drug or alcohol related crimes than optional. Folks are there for about 2 years on average - the process of osmosis alone would be a help if meetings are held daily for inmates rather than them sitting in cells doing nothing for 20 or more hours each day. But my preference hasn't been tried to my knowledge in our State, so I don't know that mandatory daily attendance would make a difference. Heck! I'd like to see mandatory attendance for families and friends in Al-Anon if they visit inmates with drug/alcohol related convictions. There are more rules in prison because a non-treated family member or friend tried to sneak in contraband or have sex in the bathrooms which is their disease at work and they truly don't know any better. They truly think they are helping their loved one not hurting them.

BF: I agree that it does work for those of us who work either program. It has worked for me. I saw it work for my son when he was actually doing the work.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I have said many times, I LOVE people who are A's. Sometimes sober or not. I am attracted to their charm, their ability to be silly. I like A men a lot. They put out this thing of being sure of themselves, yet most times are not. I am not saying this right I am sure.

Now I am talking my experience till my AH relapsed medically and gone. As a young woman I found they were a blast! I didn't know they were A's at the time but looking back they were. They were never boring, they were up to my craziness, they like to play.

Of course they all got older and the ickies of the disease hit them sadly.

Why bother? An A is so much more than their disease. Just like someone who has cancer is not cancer.

Just like anyone there are wonderful things about them. well until if and when the disease destroys that.

interesting thought!!!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

smile Debilyn: I'm not sure what you're meaning about "why bother?" If you are responding to my post to elcee then, for me, given I have a son and multiple sibs dying of this disease, I'd like to see more done to educate and treat both codependents and people with the disease early on starting with our educational system and if that's not possible, then when the disease has broken out of the family and school systems, maybe some folks might be more willing to enter treatment if they see they have something to gain by doing it - like visiting loved ones in prison or getting out of their cells for an hour or more a day being treated like human beings rather than caged animals. I'd like to believe we can do more than we've done to promote education and treatment for alcoholism and codependency. Maybe that is pie in the sky thinking and yet we also didn't see ourselves landing on the moon nor did we believe in the 60s and maybe the 70s that the Berlin Wall would come down.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 20th of October 2014 08:52:31 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 20th of October 2014 08:53:29 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 20th of October 2014 08:56:39 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 20th of October 2014 08:57:37 PM

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

I'm glad you raised this topic. I think it's an important one and something many people in our program are curious about. To me, data is only as good as the process for compiling it and the investigator. Investigator bias and agenda can muddy process and accuracy. The higher the numbers the more funding for state programs is just one example. Also... how is "longterm" sobriety being defined? Hypothetically speaking, what if someone drank every year on their birthday and went back to AA the following day? Would statistics indicate that this person couldn't maintain sobriety for any longer than one year? People relapse but when there is a solid program of recovery whether that be AA or their church or whatever works for them, many not all mind you but many return to what they know as their life which is that new recovery and right back on the horse so to speak. In my humble opinion, this is what time and experience does for people in recovery whether it's AA, Alanon or some other program of recovery. The new life becomes habitual and a person makes a conscious choice go for help where they've gotten it or not. There are no guarantees for any of us whether alcoholic or not in anything in life. Daily surrender of our will keeps us sane as alanons, and AAs sober. Only hp can predict the future. I can work a program of recovery with the understanding that I'm in Alanon for a reason and take care of myself. Is it a different way of life living with an alcoholic and understanding that there's a possibility of relapse? Sure, but it would be the same with living with any loved one with an illness that is arrested but not cured. The difference perhaps is the stigmatization that surrounds alcoholism. The "conscious choice to go for help" I mentioned in my opinion (yes we all have one) comes from developing a spiritual muscle from faith in a power greater than ourselves. I don't think that just turns to jelly when someone relapses and it's all downhill from there but I do think it takes many tries for some people to get sober and stay sober and stop believing that they can do it on their own. As family we are either up for that or not. There's no judgement either way here. It can be a long hard ride or a short direct connection to one's higher power. I don't fear living with my recovering alcoholic because his journey is his and mine is my own. My life is in place and I choose to be with him. We both "risk" to live one day at a time. Hp has the plan not us. Anyway, that's my two and a half cents. Thank goodness our program teaches us we can choose what works best for ourselves and our own lives. Thanks for all the insights and a courageous topic. ((hugs)) TT

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Maybe the truth is that what each of us needs is probably a less one-sided view? My view of alcoholism was all fantasy and pie-in-the-sky thinking that one day soon my A would realize the truth and go along to AA and our problems would be solved. I needed a more realistic view of whether he would ever have that realization (odds are against it) and whether our problems would be solved (it's a long and challenging road). I needed to stop thinking that if I could just convince him or manage him the "right" way, it was going to happen.

I think it's also important not to think that "If we just believe in them enough, we can make it happen." We're powerless. We can believe it can happen (because it can), but we can't force it to happen.

But for some others, who are struggling under a tide of bad news and disappointment, maybe what's needed is a sunnier view. Co-dependents can and do go far in recovery and have happy lives, and even for the most hardened of alcoholics, there is always a chance to turn things around and we can never say "This story is finished, I know it will end badly." Thousands, probably millions, of alcoholics find their way out of drinking and do the work and have great lives. There are some wonderful examples on this board. I guess what's needed here is a realistic assessment of miracles: we can't count them in, but we also can't count them out.

-- Edited by Mattie on Tuesday 21st of October 2014 01:14:15 PM

-- Edited by Mattie on Tuesday 21st of October 2014 01:14:44 PM

Luiza · Senior Member

I would like to see more classes about addiction to drugs and alcohol at secondary (high) schools and early counselling / intensive support for children at risk because of family history.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

The current approach to drug and alcohol education does not work. Telling kids "drugs and alcohol are bad and they kill!" does not work because then they try them and they don't die AND it feels good so they think all adults are liars. Plus they see other adults drinking and using and not dying so...

Education needs to be realistic which is "Alcohol and drugs will make you feel good quite possibly, but they are addictive and can take over your life slowly without you realizing it. So...you may start drinking or using now and not see the hard consequences for several years. It's better to be cautious and not spend so much energy nurturing something that has that much potential to grow into something so serious."

They do not respond to "Drug are bad. Just say no. Drugs will kill you." Kids laugh at that stuff and drink and use anyhow.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.