I don't see anything wrong with your response. It may just be that you are not the one he is going to listen to or learn from. At some point, you may draw a boundary to not talk about that stuff as he can't seem to handle the feedback. It could even be said unconfrontationally like "I'm too close to you to give you feedback on that son."

As a young adult on my own, I didn't tell my parents about my financial struggles and I didn't ask for their input. I also made a whole lot of financial errors that I learned to correct over time. I find it interesting that he is asking for input from you and then getting angry when you share what you have learned that doesn't flush with what he has done or what he wants to do. Could he be feeling stupid because he can't seem to be getting it right yet? Anger and blame can cover up so much that a person is afraid to share. I didn't ask my parents for any kind of loan when I was his age but I did end up at home twice where I had to pay rent and live according to the house rules again - once because a roommate moved out on me and the second time as a way to save money before I married. It would have been helpful to me if my parents had shared some of their own financial lessons and struggles rather than how well they did by the time I was in my early 20s. It was important to me that my parents saw me as a capable adult. I hid a lot from them when I really needed to know that they understood that being on my own wasn't easy - they'd been there - and that they believed I would and could be successful but that it would take time to learn how to do that. I might have been more open to asking and listening had I known that they, too, made financial mistakes in their early adult years. In my 20s, I thought my parents knew what they knew because they were smarter and more successful than me. Immaturity shielded me from the knowledge that they, too, struggled with financial decisions and had also made mistakes.

Thanks, all, for taking the time to offer your support and sharing - it's comforting to have a place to go for ES&H when I start questioning my own sanity.

I got another call last night - no request for any money, just a call telling me that he had no friends to help him move into what I thought was going to be a less expensive living arrangement - turns out, the roommate that's supposed to be sharing the rent with him (for a house that's an hour drive to \ from work each day) won't be moving in for a few months - and even that sounded sketchy to me. Stupid me, I'm wondering why a rented room close to his job wouldn't be a better solution - oh yeah, ya can't do that when you have two big dogs - I guess keeping the two dogs are more important to him right now than keeping a good job - hopefully, he'll see the light at some point - and hopefully, that'll happen sooner versus later without any money from me.

Mattie, I really like the idea of sharing my own experience with my son versus giving him advice - and gratefultobe, the idea of making it clear that I am not any smarter than my son (I honestly think that he's smarter than I am), and that I, too, have made and continue to make a lot of mistakes - and, WOW, pinkchip, what you said ("I'm too close to you to give you feedback on that son.") makes a lot of sense - how can I ever hope to give my son anything close to balanced advice when I am so close to the situation and caught up in his disease and my own life is so out of balance!

This could be me and my son. Its like we speak a different language at times, his thinking is sick and so is mine at times. I just say, im sure you can work it out or you might be right about that, maybe you could try it that way etc, never sounding patronising, I try to really mean it. I need to remember that I dont always get it right either and I can get stuck on my own way of thinking that can turn out to be completely wrong. You could stop lending him money though, its probably not helping, I get sucked into this too at times.

-- Edited by el-cee on Thursday 4th of September 2014 11:04:17 AM

I would say most A's have low self esteem. Also they don't meet benchmarks in deveopment at even an average pace.

Myself I worked with at risk kids and all kids. I would always keep to the positive with them. If something went sour I might say oh dang how did that feel? So what are you going to do next?

With your question, my thing again is to say."Ok well give it a good go!" Let me know how you are doing. Just them thinking about a plan is huge.

Advice for me would be to ask ok how do you want to handle this? Then don't add a thing, allow him the dignity to find out for himself. I know when I heard we learn when things are tough, it made me feel better. Being a widow with two babies... I learned lots.

He has to figure things out for himself, giving him support for his ideas will help him learn his own power. When we tell them oh that won't work, or try this, it takes away from them. I say, hey go for it! See how it goes, if it is not what you need, tweak it somehow to work.

Your being proud of him will make him want to keep going when he falls. Same as when he learned to walk, they have to fall to really learn how to be strong and walk.

If he comes to you and says dang it I blew it, I would say oh really how so? let him talk. then ask so what are you going to do now?

No judgements.

At age 40 I went back to college My mother was my cheerleader. She would always back me and say keep going. I learned to just get my body out the door. She never said oh this is too much or that is too many credits, oh you don't have to get A's. that would have weakened me.

Once a while back I called my guy and said I had to fix something huge, like a heavy fence gate etc. Instead of oh just do it, you can do it I know. He said well just go lay down, its too much.ugh it took the wind out of my sails!

so later I explained what I needed from him in things like that.Was nice he was gentle with me, but....

anyhooo this is my take. always the square peg here....You son loves you a lot to be asking you. and btw as far as his dogs, they help him, are his family, help him to meet others and not be alone.Make him feel needed and wanted. They are always happy to see him, never put him down or ask for more than he can give, love him for him.

My mother always supported my need for animals. Made me love her all the more for understanding that. I invite you to bring him dog food, flea med, blankets, bones for dogs. I mean it. Your supporting that will honestly mean so very much to him. More than you can imagine. Will motivate him!

hugs! am impressed what a great dad  you are!!!

 

Hi TY - I am in the same place re my adult son who spiralled into drinking binges from last Nov. I have no evidence he is drinking since he 'gave up' a couple of months ago. Neither has his ex or his sis - which doesn't mean he isn't I know.

But I clearly said no more money when he gave up. I've not really been in touch for 2 months but will see him this weekend: he's already signalled that whilst drink isn't an issue he is in a bad place emotionally and, financially, he can't continue to live in the house he owns. As advised here and at meets, I've resisted offering advice - rather I've acknowledged how hard things are for him and said that I am not the best person to advise as I am too close to the issues and, historically, this hasn't worked either for him or me.

Still, whilst I hear what others say about giving him the dignity to find his own way/solutions, not infantilise him etc I also know that, whilst he's intelligent intellectually, he is very immature emotionally (like many As as wisely noted above) and his history is littered with bad choices based on emotions and poor self esteem (bad for him, in that he ended up worse off: by his assertion not mine).

Basically, he's on hold in the hope his ex will come back. I don't think it'll happen (but won't say so). TBH, as a father I'm crying now imagining his loneliness, fear and pain about losing his ex, his home, maybe his job thru poor performance and the fact he has no friends or relatives he confides in. And now I am less 'available' too. Intellectually I know I cannot 'solve' his problems for him. I know too that, like your son, although he asks for advice he is often angry when he gets it and/or feels less worthy for still depending on his Dad (he's 38). So, 'offering advice' has definitely not worked, asked for or not.

But leaving him to repeat mistakes (costly in many ways) feels very wrong. Especially as some of my 'detachment' has been about preserving my sanity - not his.

I do go to F2F meets when I can. I'm struggling a bit with what seem (with due respect) 'mantra' responses to my (and others' struggles) eg CCC, 'let go and let god',' this will pass' etc etc.

TY it is very very hard being a Dad of someone who is in such emotional pain, compounded by a seeming inability to make choices of their own that work for them. I have no answers better than you've heard here. But, if it helps, I hope you'll know you are not alone ie there is not something especially 'bad' about you or your son. And you're not especially 'inept' as a Dad as, in the circumstances, you seem to be doing a pretty good job, not least because you've the courage to question your approach. Many don't!. More impressive given what your family's wrestling with.Which is why folk on here are less quick to judge than most. I hope things get better. Or that you're more able to manage the situations in ways that don't leave you feeling as you do now. Kind regards

Hi MCALANON,

I am sad to say, it sounds like our sons are in similar circumstances - "whilst he's intelligent intellectually, he is very immature emotionally (like many As as wisely noted above) and his history is littered with bad choices based on emotions and poor self esteem" - and while my son has not been formally diagnosed, I believe that he is afflicted with chronic depression or some condition that is responsible for his severe mood swings. 

One thing I am realizing as far as my feelings about what to do or how to handle different situations, is that since my feelings have been formed by my life in general and not ONLY formed by Al Anon and my relationship with my son, my "normal" feelings may be fine for situations NOT related to my son, buy they may be dead wrong for situations related to my son.  In other words, things like expectations may be fine in a normal relationship, but expectations can be a terrible thing in a relationship with an alcoholic \ addict.

I guess it all comes down to having to do A LOT of things differently than our intuition or feelings tell us to do when it comes to the alcoholic \ addict we love.  

And if I have a hard time accepting or believing any of what Al Anon is trying to teach me, I remind myself how many people Al Anon and AA has helped over the years - it worked for them, it can work for me - IF I work the program correctly.

I question the mantra responses, too, but even allowing for a healthy dose of "Take what you like and leave the rest", some of the basics still make a lot of sense - like detachment and a belief in a HP and getting out of the way so our alcoholic \ addict can learn how to solve their own problems - LOL, maybe some of the folks at the meetings you've gone to have "been there, done it" for so long that their responses sound almost automatic - then again, maybe they've learned what we are still trying to learn.

And even when we learn it, putting it into practice and doing the right thing for our alcoholic \ addict is a HUGE step - I sometimes find myself praying constantly, walking and bike riding and exercising just to get my mind off my son's problems - whenever I pray, I used to pray for guidance and strength until one day my HP nudged me when I was praying and told me that He'd shown me what I needed to do hundreds of times in in hundreds of different ways - so, now I'm at a place where I have a pretty good handle on WHAT it is that I need to do - now I pray for strength to do it and strength to stay the course when I do what I need to do.

This situation with my son is by far the hardest thing I've ever been faced with - and I 25 years of drug and alcohol problems myself (clean and sober for 22 years now), I have three divorces behind me, my two older kids both had significant medical problems at birth, my career in technology has seen me in and out of jobs over the years, and the list goes on - I say this mot to seek sympathy, but as a measure of how hard I find this situation with my son - there have been days when a bullet to my brain would have been a relief. 

I appreciate your closing thoughts about me not being alone in this - I would be lost without Al Anon and likely would have checked out long ago.  But, I know that this program has worked for many, many others and that it can work for me.  I pray for the strength to do what I know I need to do.  If anything, my experiences with my son have taught me that there is NOTHING I can do to run his life for him, and nothing I can do to get him to run his life the way I think he should run his life.

He may never "see the light" - but at least I can get out of his way so he'll at least have a chance of seeing the light.

Stay strong! 

-- Edited by texas yankee on Wednesday 17th of September 2014 03:30:31 PM

You want a good sampling first hand of that alcoholic depressive self talk? There is a post on the AA board that is a classic example of how I am betting your sons think and talk. I won't say which but you all are free to read as it's an open forum there.

Can someone post a link?

Now - this is where you can help me and maybe other parents. When I read that (or hear it), I immediately melt inside and want to help in some way. I know what I do and don't do as a parent who is not an A. Any tips from your perspective that might help us know how to handle this in ways that honor our love for our children that doesn't feed into the disease?

-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 17th of September 2014 09:26:25 PM

I agree Mark. This is a very painful disease and those words are so very sad to hear . When they are spoken by  a son they are   excruciatingly difficult to hear. I have called 911 and have not had any regrets for doing so.

Cathyinaz - "I found with my son now that he's in prison without the alcohol that there is no chronic depression or anxiety." - my son hasn't been using his drug of choice, crystal meth, for a long time now - more than 10 years - and for that I am unbelievably grateful - I remember praying and begging and bargaining with God to just take the crystal meth away from my son, and I'd never ask for anything else - this was at the very beginning of my journey with Al Anon - He did remove the crystal meth from his life, and big surprise, I'm still asking for His blessings on many other issues - LOL, I am glad that He didn't hold me to the deal I tried to make!.

In my son's case, I am not sure but based on conversations with his former girlfriend, I believe that he sometimes drinks alcohol (sometimes excessively to the point of incoherence) and sometimes uses marijuana. Based on childhood patterns, I believe that his depression and mood swings are due to other factors, perhaps something in the more traditional sense - many non-alcoholics and non-addicts suffer from depression and mood swings - but who knows - he's NOT working any kind of a program, and IMHO, that's something that could possibly make a huge difference in his life. In spite of all the turmoil, he has managed to find and keep a good job, he got out of a relationship without falling apart emotionally, and he seems to be getting better at managing some of the parts and pieces of life.

Regardless of what he does or doesn;t do, I need to get better at doing my part - finding strength to say NO if \ when he asks for more "help" (money) - it's an hour-by-hour battle inside of me - sometimes, if I'm lucky, it's just a daily battle.

I, too, would be VERY interested in tips about "how to handle this in ways that honor our love for our children that doesn't feed into the disease".

Thanks!

Over the years as my son was growing up he went through two huge tragedies he used all through his adult life. First him being molested when he was 6 years old and his father's and my divorce. He used it as a cop out and never really got help. Now we talked about it and he tells me about how much it hurt him but also it's time to GET OVER IT and start growing up. Seek out help for his problems in his head and quit using it as his excuses to continue going down the wrong road.

One book I got a lot out of was "Setting Boundaries with Your Adult Children " by Allison Bottke. Great read for me to learn some in's and out's of enabling.

I think the important part of detachment for me is with love. To detach with love for me is true love not love based on my old belief systems, fear, controlling tendancies. Detaching with love is allowing our children the dignity to make mistakes and having faith they will work it out for themselves. Not judging their choices to live as they see fit, not how we would have it all for them. Its judgemental and arrogant to rush in with advice and the solutions and it robs them of the necessary learning needed for their growth.

The slogans help us with detachment because live and let live reminds us that we dont know the best or correct way to live for anyone, It can be hard enough workjng it our for ourselves so that is our goal, living. Just because they are our children doesnt mean we own them or we have the right to judge their choices. Easy does it reminds me to not rush in with the old damaging fix it type of mother I was, given a bit of time my son is coming out with his own answers, its funny because they were my answers that I did tell him years ago but he needed to work it out, the same as we need to work it out for ourselves,it can be a hard one for me to accept. Thanks for sharing and I suggest having faith, alanon works.

My adventure continues . . . .

I heard from my adult kid today, LOL via a text msg, that he lost his job - of course, right up until I found out this morning that he wasn't working there any more, everything was going great - at least as far as he was telling me - no explanation as far as WHY he lost the job, just the typical stuff that these tortured souls do - "my life is falling apart" and "I keep f*%#ing EVERYTHING up" and more of the same - and of course, he doesn't wanna talk about it because I ask questions like"what happened" and when things don't add up I ask more questions - yeah, I know, questions are a waste of time.

What I am proud of about how I handled his news is that I didn't instantly try and throw some money at the problem and try to fix things for him.

I have been praying almost constantly that my HP give my son the clear vision to see the right path and the courage to get on that path, and also that I have the strength to do what I need to do - mainly, stay out of my HP's way so He can work.

Who knows how this'll end up - I believe that my son has some un-diagnosed mental health issues (depression, perhaps) and that perhaps some type of carefully prescribed medication might help - I've offered to pay for a doctor and the meds, if he chooses to go that route.

I think that he'd get a lot out of AA meetings, too, but for now he's a dry drunk - not using, but still suffering with the "isms" that these poor, sick souls can't control without working a program.

Prayers for my son and I, please.

Thanks!

The adventure continues - and I'm finding out, for today at least, that I'm stronger then I thought I was - thanks to my HP, and what I've learned here and at all of the Al Anon meetings I've been going to lately.

For some reason or chain of events not shared with me by my son, he had to get rid of his dogs - while not important to me, I know that his dogs are a big part of his life, so I can sympathize with how that must have hurt him - I think he took them to a rescue person or shelter - AND, for some reason he didn't share with me, he needs to be out of the house he's renting in two days - at that point, as he described to me, he'll be homeless and living in his car - I know, it could be A LOT worse.

I'm not sure why he lost the job or his living arrangements, but I'm pretty sure that he as at least one job option (a previous employer), and without the dogs or the girlfriend, he could certainly have an easier way finding some type of scaled down living arrangements - but he hasn't asked me about any of that, and I haven't asked.

What I'm thankful for is that I haven't offered to out him up in one of those "Residence Motels" or pay the rent on some new place for him, "just until he gets back on his feet" - the old me would have jumped right on doing that.

What I'm wondering about is maybe these recent developments are due to my HP finally having some room to do His work in this situation with my son, now that I've stepped back and worked harder on detachment. I have been praying, feverishly and almost continually, that God show my son the right path, and that He give him the courage to get on the right path and the strength to stay on it - I've also asked my HP to give me the strength to do what I need to do - detachment with love.

Thanks for the continuing prayers, and your experience, strength, and hope.

I have done everything your talking about...paying rent, helping where I could until he was just up on his feet again. My son never got off the bed and continue to go downhill. Now I know the best thing I did for him was let go and let him fall. Yeah he ended up in prison but I guess that's where he needs to be right now because his mind is finally clear enough to maybe just maybe come to terms with his drinking and finally get off that bed and stand on his OWN TWO FEET.

(((( hugs ))))

LOL, I referred to myself as "a relatively sane person" - I have a ways to go to get there . . .

I guess I'm stronger than I thought I was - or, more accurately, my HP has given me the strength to do what I needed to do. The old me would have jumped in and thrown money at my son's problem by now - so far, all I've done is stay out of my son's way (and stayed out of my HP's way), encouraged him, told him I love him, and told him that I know he's a smart guy and that he can work his way out of his problems.

He's working two jobs, found housing (sharing a house with a few other guys), and is apparently finding his way.