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Post Info TOPIC: Dishonesty


~*Service Worker*~

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Dishonesty


I don't know about you, but there was a time in recovery when although my gut instinct told me somebody was lying or manipulating or telling half truths, I'd ignore that and try to "help" or "support" them.  I wasted a whole lot of time and energy doing that and I wound up not being honest with myself about what was acceptable and what was unacceptable to me.  I have learned in recovery to be honest with myself and to withdraw my support of another person who is pretending they are doing one thing when they're really doing another.  I was impressed once with a long-term member of AA who gave his card to a person who said they wanted help.  The member took a card out of his wallet, handed it to the non-recovering A and said:  "When you are serious about getting help and getting recovery, call me."  Well, fast forward a few years and the non-recovering A is still doing what s/he'd always done and getting the same results.  S/he still had the card of the oldtimer and called him wanting money but not recovery.  The non-recovering A got nothing.  Not because there wasn't help available but because s/he truly didn't want to make the changes required. 

Today, I am aware that there are some folks who say they want recovery but don't really do the work that is necessary to recover in Al-Anon.  I am also aware that I find it to be inappropriate for me to pretend that their choice to act like they want recovery and not do the work of recovery is okay with me because it really isn't.  Our pamphlet on detachment suggests that we don't allow ourselves to be used or abused in the interest of someone else's recovery.  I need to apply that to Al-Anon for me, too.  I don't like to be used as a sounding board if somebody truly isn't interested in doing the work that is necessary to recover in this program. 

I've decided to let the AA oldtimer be my example in relationship to a few folks who I know say they want recovery in Al-Anon but won't do the work of recovery.  To focus my energy and support where it truly isn't being used to further the recovery of another is an inappropriate use of my energy and not in my best interest in my own recovery work.

I'm wondering if others have run into this same kind of thing in your recovery circles and what you've decided to do in relationship to another person who continues to talk the talk but not walk the walk?

 



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 02:51:06 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 02:52:57 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 02:55:01 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 03:22:24 PM

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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Hi grateful, In my own experience this is less of an issue in f2f meetings, the people who work it tend to show up, I think thats the first sign of wanting to walk the walk.
Almost every week we have newcomers and they dont take the suggestion to come for 6 meetings so they dont come back. Some people dip in and out, they want it and make some progress but only come when things get bad again. I think it is frustrating, I make an effort as most members do to make people feel welcome, I have shared part of my story with strangers who say they will come back and they dont. It does get a bit disheartening and it could be seen as downright rude, lol, but its truly their loss because our meetings are great, its like a wee family and I am so glad I listened to the suggestion to keep coming back and I have barely missed a meeting in 2 and a half years. I need it, im still not right but im not half as wrong as I used to be.

I do get frustrated here at times, theres only a handful of people who speak alanon on this forum. Most people are here without much of an understanding of alanon and how it works, they use it more like a agony aunt type page so sometimes its like your talking your esh for nothing. They could be on any site with any program or councilling type thing really, its not really alanon they are seeking. Some people just want to hear the sympathy and the truth doesnt go down well.

I try to give newcomers whatever I can, understanding and gentle direction or support and some people are brilliant and how good is it to see someone willing and going for it?

I think these challenges are practice for us, well for me ive got to try really hard at times to say what I mean without saying it mean, humility is my goal but its up and down, I can get emotional about some stories, especially if its really similar to mine and I want to scream at the person to run, but its not my journey so again detachment is useful. Im still learning to walk the walk and there is probably something for me to learn in everyone. Thanks for your honestshare, sometimes its good to challenge the norms and shake it up a bit.x

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PP


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I agree, Grateful and El cee.  I did not see many who came regularly to f2f al anon meetings that were not working their recovery programs.   I see people here on MIP that are not working their recovery programs.  I have asked myself if I am enabling them to continue with their con job by continuing to offer the same ESH over and over again.  My answer is "yes".  I like the example of the oldtimer.......thank you for your honesty and willingness to open up another thought provoking conversation.



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Paula



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Being still a newcomer, I don't have any experience in the area, other than perhaps on the other side with people wondering when I will be getting a sponsor, not going to enough meetings, etc. And I get what you are saying, the oldtimer AA guy is a supreme of example of not enabling.

the thing I like about this forum ad f2f is that you never know who you will see grow. I've seen people that you could swear just weren't getting it finally start to get it and overcome their fears. And I've seen a lot of people ask one question then never come back. it's a lot like fishing.

I'm not good at fishing, because I don't have the patience. But answering questions here is a lot easier than standing in the heat and humidity of a Hoosier August afternoon waiting for a bluegill. And the potential rewards are great. But I can also understand wanting to come in after awhile when the fish just aren't biting as well!

Kenny


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Thanks, el cee. It's not so much the folks who don't come back but the folks who come and keep repeating the same story over and over and want some of us to be available for more attention to their same story that never truly changes. Nothing ever changes because they aren't putting any effort into the program - just attending and complaining, etc. They go through the motions but really aren't interested in working the program - just gaining the attention of others to listen to their story that others of us have heard for 1, 2, 3, 4 years. If I've learned anything from them it is that I truly don't want to be a sounding board more than I want to be a support for those who truly do want recovery and do the work.

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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Paula:  I have asked the same question in regards to some folks and checked out my motives at times.  I was enabling and I stopped it.  I can remember when I worked in shelters that required sobriety and daily job searches.  Nobody ever took the guests word for what they were doing or not doing.  They had to show what they were doing.  Guests that didn't want to make changes felt their rights were being infringed upon.  Guests that truly did want to make changes appreciated the accountability checkpoint (after awhile.smile)

Kenny:  What I like is that you are going to meetings and you are hearing your own inner guidance to find a sponsor and heeding it.  As to fishing - I have patience - I just don't have the heart to hook a worm or a fish.  And as you know, I can certainly understand on an experiential level those Hoosier land summers.  I'm going to have to get myself to my local ice cream shop before the Marion County blackberry ice cream is gone for the season.  Thanks for the reminder.



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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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We don't always know how much influence a few honest words or well placed deeds have on the lives of others.

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Thanks, Milkwood.  I so agree with you.  Its when my own inner spirit says stop this because its going nowhere that I'm referring to.  In some ways, in my groups, when I notice that stirring in myself I notice I've stepped back onto a merry-go-round that I do recovery work to avoid in relationship to non-recovering As and being totally honest - with others who may not be As but are not truly working the program in our recovery circles.  By continuing to listen, I'm helping to keep them on that merry-go-round, too.  I hate to admit that about myself but it has been true.  I have stepped back onto the merry-go-round at times with folks who really don't want to make any changes and stayed on it longer than my inner self said to do it.  It is one of those Step 1 things that I've learned I need to apply in my recovery circles and in my personal and professional life, too.  I truly do want to make changes in my life that are in line with Al-Anon recovery work and hold myself back when I get back on that merry-go-round we talk about.



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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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I agree with all that has been said and also know that the power of denial is extraordinary . Members say one thing and do the other . If I believe that sharing my ESH helps me by just doing so then what the person does with this is not important As Milkwood stated, we do not know the power of a few kind words

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Betty

THE HIGHEST FORM OF WISDOM IS KINDNESS

Talmud


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I think that it takes time for recovery as old habits die hard. I am new to alanon and I know that it is going to take time and lots of encouragement from myself to me to learn the steps properly and how to work them in different situations. I am trying my best and that is all I can do and any help anyone with more experience in this than me is gratefully accepted. Hugs, Shosh.



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Yes, shosh - recovery takes time and its never finished in my experience. I'm still learning and I've been in the program for years. When someone is actively working a program, it becomes very apparent in a short amount of time to me. When they aren't actively working the program, that too reveals itself in time. There is a difference in working the program vs a person saying s/he wants to work it and don't.  If I keep suggesting meetings, literature, working the steps with a sponsor to a person over and over again, to me it is trying to impose my will on them.  If someone is actively working a program, they'll utilize at least one of those tools in a way that becomes very apparent and does make a difference for them that they can demonstrate in some way.



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 05:27:13 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 05:27:56 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 05:28:47 PM

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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It can be frustrating and I know sometimes people have woken me out of my stupor by saying "You keep complaining but have you taken action?  No?  Then the same problems will keep happening, won't they?"  The times people have been very straightforward with me have been painful but helpful.  Sometimes it didn't sink in till years later, but I remembered it all those years, which means it had an impact even at the time.

Another thing to remember is that when we write things on these boards, many people see them and you never know who it will help.  I've been helped by reading things meant for completely different people in seemingly different situations.  So one advantage of these boards is that we all get to be "eavesdroppers" on other threads and it is so enlightening.  Even when people don't pick up on wisdom it's enlightening - "Why isn't he doing what it's clear he should do!  How could he be in such denial?  I've never been in such denial ... Oh ... well, maybe I have ... well, maybe I am ..."



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Good points to consider, too, Hotrod and Mattie.

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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Wow, I've had 2 meetings this week about tradition 8 in relationships and this thread fits that too. I think my HP is trying to tell me something.

When someone comes on this site or to my f2f, I don't know all the details of their life. I only know what they are saying right now. I'm sure there is so much more that fits into the situation they are relaying. I can't possibly tell them what to do. So many times on this site I have wanted to just write "run away fast as you can", but I don't because there are a million reasons they can think of why they MUST stay in denial. We all know the outcome, but they don't.

One person last night at my meeting said her response to someone who constantly is bringing the exact same problem to her is to say, "there are 10 solutions to this puzzle. Let's think of at least 10 things, if they are silly or not." And that puts the ball into the other court that there ARE solutions but it is not my business to say they have to read more, or they have to attend more meetings. It is my business to make them start to think. If they can't or don't want to is their business.

For myself, I know all the reasons why I am how I am but I also know all the reasons why I want to stay how I am. Maybe some denial or maybe painful reality that "it is what it is." I learned a slogan early in AlAnon about not having to explain my every move, but then I also don't need to complain about it either. "Don't explain, don't complain".

Frustrating, but detachment works without being distant.

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maryjane


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I don't see how Tradition 8 figures into my thread, maryjane. Al-Anon Twelfth Step work should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers? Please help me understand the parallel between the 8th Tradition and being sure when its time for me to say enough for my own recovery needs? Help, please.  Denial to me is different than someone lying or manipulating to gain attention.  That, of course, is probably a whole different thread.



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 09:20:24 PM

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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In the ODAT page 289...
When someone come in and talks in big ways about problems but can't see the way for themselves.... that can include lying and manipulating for attention because they are hysterical or acting like they are.... or in other words a bit crazy. We can't make their decisions for them but can only make them think for themselves. And that is the non-professional part.
And I think denial is lying. I know when I am lying to myself when I am in denial, but I didn't always know it. One of the things AlAnon taught me.

And the person you are talking about may not fit this either. It is what I thought of when I read your thread.... probably because I have been to 2 f2f meetings this week about tradition 8 and that is on my mind.

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maryjane


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Thanks, Maryjane. I drug out my Paths book to read Tradition 8 as you were reading ODAT. I can see how you might see Tradition 8 as a possibility to consider. You are correct in that the persons I have in mind don't fit into this. But, it was still good for me to listen to how you saw Tradition 8 as a possibility to consider and to re-read 8 in Paths, too. Thank you, sister. I don't see these folks in denial as much as I see them as making up things to gain or regain the sympathy and attention of others. There are a lot of folks in denial in our programs and they are working their program. To me, they will get there when they get there. I know denial is a shock preventer and I'm not into tearing somebody's defenses down. The folks I am referring to are people who button hole whomever they can to garner sympathy which keeps them locked in to doing nothing to change or even attempting anything that will help them and know exactly what to say to hook the interest of others. That's different to me than somebody being in denial. They have problems, too, and I can't help them with that type of problem - saying what you are aware can hook people into listening one more time to the same story for years. I may still treat them with courtesy and respect and I am not going to allow myself to be buttonholed because that hurts me.  I also believe that if something I do hurts me, it hurts the other person, too.  I could be mistaken about that but it is what I know to be true for me today.



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 09:50:47 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 09:56:49 PM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 22nd of August 2014 10:02:21 PM

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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Alanon can be tricky in terms of people confusing themselves that they ARE working the program when really they are twisting stuff around. I see people telling themselves they are making progress with detachment when really they are accepting a lot of unacceptable behaviors rather than having the courage to change. The end result of this is staying a slave to fear and to the disease. That depresses me sometimes because recovery is really about freedom from the bondage of self...not coping with your life being crappy and staying crappy out of fear of change. I do understand that folks usually grasp the first part of the serenity prayer first...meaning the the serenity to accept things they cannot change, but far less seem to acknowledge and work on changing the things they can...and hence, they don't develop the wisdom to know the difference either. This is the sneaky type of half measures and pseudo recovery that sometimes irks me. In AA, that would just wind up in relapse and it would be more obvious the program needs tweaking. Though in AA we just acknowledge they are chronic relapsers and it is what it is. In Alanon, a chronic relapser is more difficult to grasp. You don't know your program is busted like in AA or NA where it's so obvious. Staying fear based and stuck rather than happy, joyous, and free ought to be a clue though.

That being said, I've seen miraculous recovery here, especially from the old timers. It far outweighs seeing folks spinning their wheels. Also, if I feel I'm enabling or getting played, whose problem is that really? Mine.

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Amen, PC. The people that I have detached from because I do experience myself as being played after awhile aren't even in the game. There's no way to see that the program is busted because they've never begun it. To experience myself as being played and listening anyway is when I have caught myself enabling. Even though I do detach without being nasty about it, it still irks me when it is happening in the present and the AA oldtimer who gave me an example of such clean detachment was a big help to me that I wanted to share with others who might also notice they get irked by it, too.

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"Darkness is full of possibility." Leunig



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Thanks for the esh in here. Plenty for me to think about.

I check with myself that by getting involved, be it in 3d or online, that I am not doing it from a rescuing mode or trying to get approval mode. Or that I am getting a toxic high of excited misery from it. Which have been very big issues for me. I think first and make sure I am purely offering esh with no expectation of anything back. That I benefit spiritually from the sharing. Then let it go.

I use detachment and love it. If I feel people are looking for enabling, and to constantly offload the same problem without any urge to grow and move forward, I just wouldn't get involved. They will then just go look for someone who will. I feel I would be letting myself down if I gave away my energy. My time and energy is precious to me now, so I want to share it wisely.

What freedom I gained. I used to believe it was my 'job' to endlessly listen to people moaning, Al-anon taught me that I don't only not have to do it but that it is not good for either people involved.

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Love the share, SG. I have no problem sharing my e/s/h with no expectation of a return. I also think it takes time to determine whether or not a person is constantly offloading the problem without any urge to grow and move forward. After a reasonable amount of time - and of course only I can determine what is reasonable for me - I do think the same as you do in not wanting to give away my energy and that others will step up to the plate to do what I simply don't want to do and don't need to do. I do think there is a risk of transferring the over-functioning we did with our As to others - both in the program and outside of it. Although I didn't really learn that I don't have to listen to people endlessly moaning in Al-Anon, my own growth work in the program helped me recognize my limits and honor them as you have also learned. I also have to make sure that I am not endlessly moaning in one way or another. My thought on this is - if I don't like it, I better not do it.



-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 23rd of August 2014 01:35:12 AM

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In the end I get to repractice the philosophy of always being in progress and not perfect.  I get to appreciate and be grateful that my Higher Power is...always and that I don't have to and won't have to do more than help.  I have the gift of memory and the great fortune to remember when I use to be STUCK and seemingly unhelpable and it is that same gift of memory that allows me to revisit the gifts of patience, tolerance, compassion, empathy and unconditional love the early fellowship wrapped me in.  They had hope for me and with me..."Family Groups" yes.  In the disease of alcoholism with those who have been affected in the family I rarely see dishonesty of the type seen from the alcoholic and or addict.  Most just "don't get it" for a time just like I didn't and my sponsorship with the fellowship told me "you didn't get this way over night and you won't find solution over night either".    What do I do with those who get STUCK?  I do what was done to me and in fact that is exactly what my Higher Power suggest that I do under those conditions...so that is what I do.   I know what they feel like cause I use to fell that way myself.  Mahalo for not quitting on me.   (((((hugs))))) smile 



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Fortunately, there is the group and what one of us can't do because we won't be true to ourselves if we act, there are others who can step forward and do what they think is their guidance in the moment or in the situation. Thank goodness this is not a me program and is a we program. I don't see withdrawal as quitting when the spirit says withdraw. I see it as honoring who one is and what one has to give and not trying to push beyond it. And that doesn't mean for me that when a person gets unstuck that I won't be back again if its in me to be there. I do think the detachment suggestion not to be abused or used in the interest of another's recovery in the case of some people is meant to be literally and not liberally interpreted at times in recovery rooms and outside of them.  I'm glad nobody gave up on you, too, Jerry.  If they had, I wouldn't have had the good fortune of learning from you.  And...to add one more thought on this that came to me as I re-read your share, I suspect that those I feel the need to withdraw from for a time probably do have addiction or alcohol dependencies that they are not addressing.  That is my sense and it doesn't mean I'm not mistaken.



-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 23rd of August 2014 02:25:37 AM



-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 23rd of August 2014 02:31:55 AM

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grateful2be wrote:

Love the share, SG. I have no problem sharing my e/s/h with no expectation of a return. I also think it takes time to determine whether or not a person is constantly offloading the problem without any urge to grow and move forward. After a reasonable amount of time - and of course only I can determine what is reasonable for me - I do think the same as you do in not wanting to give away my energy and that others will step up to the plate to do what I simply don't want to do and don't need to do. I do think there is a risk of transferring the over-functioning we did with our As to others - both in the program and outside of it. Although I didn't really learn that I don't have to listen to people endlessly moaning in Al-Anon, my own growth work in the program helped me recognize my limits and honor them as you have also learned. I also have to make sure that I am not endlessly moaning in one way or another. My thought on this is - if I don't like it, I better not do it.



-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 23rd of August 2014 01:35:12 AM


 Many thanks for your reply, Grateful2be.   I agree, it takes time to become aware if it is just 'unloading with no intent to move forward in their program'.  I take things on face value at first, then as time goes on, red flags would start and I would become aware so move away,detach etc. 

Prior to Al-anon, I would literally listen forever.  Forever!  Become terribly drained and resentful but still do it!  Which is pure insanity, I see now. 

I like what you share that you recognise your limits and honour them now.  Me too.  And it feels great.

I can now see that to avoid 'emotional vampires' is not only allowed but it is a very healthy thing to do for myself. 

Equally I know not to dump my moaning on others.  Instead I work with my sponsor to understand a problem and then come up with a solution.  Put it into action, feedback and discuss with my sponsor.

A much nicer way of living. smile

 

 



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Ive given this more thought and I feel this way too quite often, your right some people are not members of the fellowship but pick up bits and pieces and then say they are working alanon. Could it be a matter of interpretation? Are newbies told what alanon actually is after their first or second post? Not always, sometimes they are advised to buy non cal books, this may be misleading too, or they are given generic advice that sounds alanonish. Sometimes alanon is not mentioned at all. In many ways the alanon family group logo on this site is misleading. We dont follow the alanon principles and traditions closely, maybe its not possible in some respects. sometimes personalities are way before principles and I know im guilty of that at times.

I think I get frustrated more with people who are not newcomers, been around for a while, throw in a couple of slogans to their posts, no meetings, no readings, no sponsor, then their posts reflect this, the merrygoround is still turning. Weve all got a duty after a while in this fellowship to then pass it on. Not everyone gives, some only take. Ive stopped given to some, im not a complete idiot, ive learned the lesson that some people tell you who they are and I accept it more these days. In it all, I think there is still much to learn about myself, even if its reading the same old same old from someone and just choosing not to play that game anymore, thats progress for me.x



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On a lighter note, I also attend a slimming club. There are people there who have attended for years but never lost any weight. They don't seem to realise that just turning up at the meeting once a week isn't enough, you have to actually follow the diet too!!   smile



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Just as it can be kind to say nothing when the a is talking disease, it can be the same here, when the disease is talking non stop, it can be kinder and more appropriate to say nothing. Its hard though because then a similar non program work person will give their non esh and reinforce the disease, then newbies pipe in and before you know it they all think this is what alanons all about, just moan, self pity, poor mes, my life is worse than your life competition etc. Im not sure if there is a solution to this really, its an open forum with no vetting system, lol, just kidding. At times there are more non alanon people than actual fellowship members so its diluted. The danger is, if people decide not to say reply to the disease newcomers may not hear the voice of the fellowship at all. Its a catch 22 situation. Very thought provoking grateful. Thank you.x

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The difference is with alanon one meeting a week would still give you progress.x

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There are a couple of things here that I find a bit troubling and disheartening, I hope it's OK to ask for clarification. I'm certainly not looking for debate, I am just flat out honest-to-HP confused.
Firstly, for me, the "fake it till you make it" approach was the only thing that was able to get through to me and help me get a foothold to begin with. I didn't understand, and then I intellectually understood but couldn't "feel" the program and then I read this story about just going through the motions with recovering people who seemed to get it and eventually things would fall into place. Fake it till you make it in other words. That worked for me. I didn't always feel the program and I didn't always do what I said I was going to do but I still made the daily effort to THINK about the program and think about what I should be doing and reinforce for myself that I was going to try to do those things, even if I didn't end up having the strength to follow through. I don't think I was/am being dishonest, I think I was trying to make it a habit to think and talk in an al-anon way in the hope that it would become more real and solid for me. It did, it feels real and solid now and my "talk" gets more "walky" as time goes on. Or I think it does. That for me feels like progress and I am as pleased as punch with it. I have a long way to go and I get it wrong a lot of the time but I persevere and consider al-anon my "go to" tool-kit and I feel it's absolutely central to my life now even if others might not think I am working it well. What they think of me is none of my business, after all

Secondly, I am really confused about the idea that it is not good to only bring my own issues and not respond to other people...I get that, it makes total sense...but then I'm reading here that responses are "not al-anon enough" and it really feels like what is written here is being judged very harshly and I'm sure my attempts to respond to people (especially ones where I have mentioned non CAL that has helped me) would fall under the umbrella of being "generic advice that sounds al-anonish". I mean the reason I hold back from responding much on here is because I feel I am not advanced or strong enough in my program yet to say what is truly helpful and don't want to give the wrong suggestions but I feel I should also feel guilty because I am "taking and not giving" by not responding to people.
I mentioned on here once before that I feel hesitant to respond to people here because I don't feel confident that I can offer anything helpful and people replied very vocally, no Melly you should share from your heart, no-one is judging you" but really responses are being judged quite severely and now I feel even more hesitant to respond to other people's threads other than light hearted banter or support for people I know already have strong recovery. I don't know the perfect al-anon answer to give so anything I offer will be wrong so I have absolutely no business saying anything to a newcomer.

I feel really quite sad and uncomfortable after reading this thread.



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Melly, you're working the program and have made progress.

My initial thread had to do with being deliberately lied to in recovery circles by a few and how I've learned to deal with it for my own wellbeing and perhaps for theirs as well. It is something that does happen and it is something that can and does affect us from time to time in the program. Sharing my own experience with being deliberately lied to by folks who after awhile demonstrate they really are not interested in working a program but have another agenda is troublesome to me because it does affect my own recovery if I pretend I'm not being lied to - regardless of the reason. In AA, rigorous honesty is something that is stressed for the wellbeing of the person wanting sobriety. As an Al-Anon member, I have discovered that is true for me as well in this area as well as others. I don't like being lied to and I don't like somebody manipulating me with their words. That's honest for me. I cannot change the other person and I can change me.



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I can see why people may feel uncomfortable with this thread and I look at my words and yes, there is intolerance, frustration, still a desire to control. I recognise that, its part of my disease, its some of my symptoms. This thread has been good for me to vent, to bring out somethings within me that need to be worked on. I dont want to feel intolerant but I do, its the truth, im being honest. Im revealing parts of me that I would usually hide in shame, hopefully this helps me, the letting go. Sometimes, I feel that unless its all the nicey, rubbing of others egos stuff then its rejected. Ive no doubt that this thread will be vilified, including my reply, but then thats unacceptance of me.Ive got to accept your symptoms but you wont accept mine?

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elcee - once again your honesty in sharing is profoundly appealing to me. Thank you.

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I understand what's being said in this thread to some degree, but I have to admit that I am with missmeliss and say that I am sad after reading through it. I know that one of the things my sponsor told me when we first sat down was that she was attending meetings for 3 years before she actually made a real commitment to find her own recovery. She's been in program now for 20 years and is a very respected woman of Al Anon and well known as a speaker and leader in Al Anon circles. I'd hate to think that we'd turn people away or not respond to them, just because of frustration that they aren't 'getting it' or aren't working the program the way that is expected of them. Maybe that's a bit harsh and I understand the frustration in a way, but it sounds like there are expectations placed on others? Or am I reading this wrong?

I always thought that we allowed our HP to work through us in His time? Who's to say that His time is 4 months or 4 years or more for someone's recovery path? And, as Mattie said, sometimes what is said to one member is what can be the exact thing that benefits someone else so you never know who's being helped by your words.

So, what happened to me when I read this post? I immediately felt condemned and judged because I am most likely not working my program the way I 'should'. I come here to vent and yes, my problems may be the same and maybe my growth isn't reflected well here on a virtual message board. I come here looking for support and a shoulder to lean on at times. Who's to say if my program isn't where it should be? God has me right where I am supposed to be. I feel the need to defend myself after reading this thread and now I can go finish having a good cry.

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I am sorry that this thread created in you a need to defend yourself, Andromeda, and that you feel condemned. You have been actively engaged in working your program and I've never experienced being deliberately lied to by you.

I can't speak for others but I can speak for me, if I did experience that, I wouldn't respond to your posts after awhile because I truly couldn't be of any assistance to you. My thread is a share about me and what isn't okay with me and how I've learned to recognize my own limits and honor them. It isn't about turning people away from the program or the board. Its about my own experiences and what I've learned I need to do to take care of myself.

I can understand how some of what has been shared can be upsetting to you if you think I'm suggesting that people be turned away because they aren't working their program in a certain way. That isn't or wasn't my meaning or my intent.

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I agree with every point you made andromeda, in terms of the program being inclusive, of course it is. We are at different levels of progress and maybe your ahead of me in terms of acceptance and tolerance, how is progress measured? I dont know. There are more than one way to read a post too, just like you may read it and respond with patience, I may be more likely to respond with impatience. Does that mean im bad and your good? Maybe it means your further along your steps than me. Posts like this are powerful for some, like me, but there not socially acceptable, people take them personally and then its a bad post. I want progress too. Im being honest, revealing my dark side why would that hurt you and make you cry? Have I to be treated to guilt now and that should keep me down? Im feeling not accepted, ive to reveal myself but wait, oh ive went to far and now ive hurt people and made them cry. Dont I deserve u derstanding? No, only when ive said the way people want hear it, ive got to play the game and play nice.

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The way I understand this thread is that it's about our own internal tendencies rather than really about whether other people are "doing it right."  When we see people in the fellowship doing unhealthy things or repeating painful behaviors or whatever, it can be very frustrating.  Just as it's frustrating when we see our A's saying stuff like "I'm going to quit drinking, it's just that I don't need to bother with AA" - we see the behavior and we think, "That's not going to work."  It's so so hard to let go of expectations and overfunctioning for other people.  But what we're really trying to do when we do that is control other people.  And I think grappling with that and recognizing that is a good thing.  "Here I am again, pretending that I know how other people's lives should go."  I mean sure, we can hope people find healthy answers and serenity.  But after a certain point we can easily get all impatient when isn't happening on our schedule.  Heck, I get impatient when my own recovery isn't happening on my schedule!  The whole thing is a reminder to me to focus on my own recovery.  It's so easy to distract myself by thinking, "So-and-so should do this and then he should do that and then ..."  or "So-and-so is fooling himself."  Meanwhile I am ignoring the big parts of my life that could use some work.  Turns out I'm not perfect ... hmmm ...

I hope no one here will feel judged.  I think all of us are amazing.  Plus most of the rest of the world is crazy too and they're not even working on it! smile



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Grateful, I think I understood that from your first post but as the thread moved on, I started to get more despairing about how I was working my program. Not just from what you said but from all the input here. And, if I'm honest, I myself have gotten frustrated with folks who aren't letting the program sink in so I understand where you're coming from. And, as you know, my feelings were mine and mine to own as was my own interpretation. Thank you for clarifying. Of course, if I wasn't judging myself so harshly, I probably wouldn't have taken any of this personally in the first place, LOL. Just not a good day here for me, you know? Thanks again.

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El Cee, if you read my above post you will see that I wasn't intentionally guilting anybody because I was sad from reading this. What this post did for me today was reveal how pissed off and frustrated I am at my own inadequacies of working my program as best as I can. It made me think that I had a problem that was letting others on the board down and so I responded with sadness. And, yes, it is sad when people don't work their program fully. Once I read grateful's message above and got the clarification that I truly wasn't 'seeing' before, I understand the 'theme' of this thread. Doesn't mean I don't hurt when I think about how I've probably dropped the ball a million times in my recovery and how I probably post about the same old crap over and over again, but it helps.

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I don't see anything you've shared to be anything more than honest, open and revealing, elcee. What you said about seeing areas you need to grow resonates with me as there are areas I need to grow, too. That to me is what our program is about - seeing where we have made progress and seeing where we need a little "tweaking" as Jerry said recently. I do think that you are very serious about utilizing the program and in the time I've had the good fortune of interacting with you, have grown in ways that have helped me grow, too. Thank you.

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Andromeda, Im pissed of too and feeling a bit hurt. Im glad you said you get frustrated because sometimes I feel as if im crap at this because im pissed off a lot. I know it reveals more about me than anyone else. Its good to know that others feel frustrated and feel some of what I feel, it tells me im not a total loser. This post gave me an outlet and I used it as such. Seeing my feelings in black and white is powerful to me, I can then see clearly my own shortcomings and it also puts it into context for me that yes others feel it in their own way and they deal with it in different ways that I can learn from. This has been good for me and I dont want to feel guilty about it, its my true feelings, I know they are not right or loving or kind, is that not okay?

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