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I have a couple of thoughts tonight that have been weighing on my heart. LOL .. if I can keep them straight I'm just going to do two separate posts. I'm looking for ESH on how to figure out what is guilt and what is shame.
What does guilt feel like? What does shame feel like? What is the difference? No I don't live inside my head .. much .. ok .. more than normal however .. lol .. some of that is just who I am.
Hopefully I'm not repeating myself .. LOL .. maybe I am so I apologize my brain is fried. It was a very long day, some very enjoyable and some was just straight up trying.
Anyway, something in one of my cd's has left me with very uncomfortable feelings. I've kind of been on the verge of tears thinking about it over the past few days. I've shared already my thoughts on a few things, maybe not so much why it has caught me so off gaurd.
I have spent much of my life knowing I should feel guilty about arbitrary situations and I just don't. Honestly, I had wondered if I had some kind of disorder. What I am starting to realize is that I feel shame. It hurts bad. This is the same reasoning that guilt is feeling bad about a situation and shame is feeling that I am the mistake.
That's kind of .. for lack of a better term .. WOW .. and OUCH. I need to talk to my sponsor about some of this, I can write it, however I can't say it situation. I'll blubber like a baby if I try and talk about it.
For the past few days I have come to realize that my whole life I have regarded myself as a mistake. I thought those were feelings of guilt about situations .. and really no .. it's shame. Shame for not being bloody perfect when I should have been. Shame for I shouldn't have been here in the first place, as I was a "mistake" from birth. This illociagl feeling of shame has kept me trapped in this whole belief system that I don't deserve the good in the world. My old belief system was there was a thing as too much happiness, joy, good things just don't happen to people who are mistakes. When people show me kindness in the past I have not believed I deserved the kindness as it was all a "mistake" they were kind. A man, .. any man raises his voice (you know that father knows best voice that rings right through you and you don't know if kindness or cruelty is attached to it) will reduce me to tears in a heartbeat. I've broken down more during that time I was working at the funeral home over the tone the boss guy used at me. I never cried in the office however I can remember driving home literal tears streaming down my face and thinking to myself .. it wasn't that I made a mistake it was I AM the mistake. I just really hadn't thought about that fact until the past two weeks.
My aha moment, ... rejection immediately goes to shame for me. Doesn't matter how big or little the rejection is .. I immediately think there is something defective in me. It may not even be rejection it is what I perceive as rejection and then I go instantly to shame. I guess my shame feels like defensiveness and I literally close up and my whole aura becomes very sharp. Like can't get close kind of sharp, just like a porcupine nice and pointy! My self esteem takes a nose dive too. I'm still not sure how to respond to this in a healthy manner. I mean ok .. the 3 A's .. I got that. It's the action in the middle of adversity I'm not sure what to do with.
Thank goodness for Alanon, and slowly I'm starting to learn how to be gentle with myself and let go of this false belief system. Letting go of the shame is so hard because I didn't even know it was shame I was feeling or I have felt. It still comes in waves, much painful at the moment. My heart has ached as well as my head tonight. It's a lot to release all at the same time. All of this unecessary garbage I have been carrying around for a very long time. I was ready to dump a bunch of garbage I just wasn't expecting it this weekend .. lol.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
So while I read your post, I started to wonder what the difference was too! We seem to have many things in common. These are my quick thoughts - Guilt is when I do something that maybe I should not have. Shame is when something is done to me that should not have happened, but yet I feel it is still my fault. ???? I'm new, and just a quick thought that popped in my head. Hopefully others with more wisdom in the program will shed some light . I'm am interested to hear the ESH all these wonderful peeps will bring. Love and many hugs! dragonflys
My therapist just gave me a book this week called....yep, you guessed it: "Shame and Guilt: Masters of Disguise". Ok, well maybe you didn't guess the whole title but you get the drift. I am planning on reading it next week. Here's an excerpt I found just now, just by flipping through the book: page 56:"When we experience guilt, we blame our behavior. When we experience shame, we blame our character and being." The author goes on to explain more in detail, but the book is mostly about how we carry shame from our childhoods into adulthood and how our parents own shame shaped us. The author's name is Jane Middleton-Moz.
I learned it kinda sorta like ILD has read it. By the way I never felt either guilt or shame until well into my recovery and working with a counselor at the VA/AA center. I had to learn what feelings were first. "Feelings are inner reactions to outside events"...Nuclear burns when I got that one and then guilt during my inventory practice...I feel guilty because of what I have done that violates a higher value system. Shame was when another person was hurt by it and I valued myself as being loving and caring and a person with integrity. Shame wasn't so much about I had done a bad thing and rather that I was a bad person...I personalized the unacceptable behaviors and loved the person I hurt.
Good thread...I'm gonna listen for more. ((((hugs))))
I've read several books concerning this topic. The best I've come across is Bradshaw on: The Family by John Bradshaw. Here is an excerpt from the book: "Shame is at the heart of our wound and differs greatly from the feeling of guilt. Guilt says I've done something wrong; shame says there is something wrong with me. Guilt says I've made a mistake; shame says I am a mistake. Guilt says what I did was not good; shame says I am no good. The difference is distinct nad profound."
I think this hits on several of your points of feeling like you are a mistake, according to this book, that is shame speaking. The book goes on to talk about Shame through Abandonment and development of the False Self. There are other good chapters in this book too, as far as speaking to self-esteem issues and birth order characteristics. It is one of the few books that I picked up and did not put down till I finished! It's easy to read, or at least it was for me.
Hope this helps!
Lisa
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I can Overcome all things through my HP who strengthens me.
Lisa...we use to get Noners together at our house and look at Bradshaw videos and then have a meeting on what we heard and how it relates to us afterwards. We had some great meetings that way. I also use to use Bradshaw in my family counseling sessions when I used to counsel...John had some insights and he was also one of us...(((hug)))
Great post Pushka, I too struggle with this one. They have been interchangeable words for me in the past but after thinking about it, there is a difference. I struggle more with the shame side, for me it is often what someone near me has done (usually the AH) and I go into shame mode, I think for me it is because I figure I picked this person to be with, he does something hurtful or embarrassing and I feel shame because I choose him. It's kind of hard to explain, good share, thanks for the topic. Ts
Guilt is adaptive and Shame is not. ILD is right on in the explanation. Guilt is when you make a mistake and says "Dang. I messed up. I'll do better next time." Shame is when you make a mistake and go "Dang. I messed up. Why am I always messing up? Why am I such a screw up?" Shame attacks your self esteem and self-worth. Guilt allows us to have morals. Hence, guilt is not a bad thing and when most people make it into that, they are really talking about shame. People "trying to guilt" you are really attempts to shame 99 percent of the time.
In terms of how you feel about the way you fit into the world...about rejection...Well that may or may not be a shame issue but a reflection of your self-esteem. In many interactions you havent done anything to feel ashamed or guilty about so being rejected wouldn't necessarily be either right? That area of study has been referred to as attribution theory. People who are depressed or have low self esteem will take something bad and say "That bad thing happened because of me, it will always happen, and the world is crapping on me." Optimistic people with high self-estem will say "That bad thing happened but it probably wont happen again, I can control it and it was just a fluke." Similarly, when something good happens, as depressed person with low self-esteem says "That was a fluke, it will never happen again. Guess I got lucky" while a self-confident and optimistic person says "I made that good thing happen. I can keep this up and continue to produce good things." Take that into the attributions you make about others (even though we constantly are told "what others think about you is none of your business")...Someone will look at you and a self-assured person goes "Hrm. That person is looking at me cuz I look good" and the depressed person with poor self esteem goes "Why are they looking at me? I must look like a freak." Naturally, a person who has been around an emotionally abusive drunk, either growing up or in an intimate relationship is going to get conditioned to hearing negative things about themself and they will start to make those attributions non-stop. This is where all the slogans of alanon literally reprogram the mind to think more positively.
One of my professors in grad school make her whole living off this subject. She was the self titled "Shame and Guilt" lady....June Tangney. Anyhow, she ran a lab and put undergrads through a "intelligence test" and then told them they did poorly on it. Afterwards she monitored their responses towards others in a team exercise and rated them for shame based thinking. It was a big deal because the study involved deception and telling people they are stupid just to see how they act afterwards is sort of controversial even if you do tell them it was all untrue in debriefing.
When I think of my own recovery, I know purging myself of shame has been a huge part of it.
I don't have time at the moment to read all the replies, and forgive me for referencing non conference approved literature, but...I literally just read about this last night in the book Healing the Child Within. You may want to check it out, there is a chapter on it. This is a basic concept but important to remember--guilt is bad feelings related to something you did, shame is bad feelings related to something you feel you are (i.e., inadequate, etc.). And the shame often manifests itself in so many different ways--anger for one, control, etc.
WOW WOW WOW WOW .. all I can say is how much I love you guys and gals!! Thank you so very much for all of the feedback!! I have been reading and re-reading as I process all of what everyone has shared. Which I will be continuing to do over the next week. I'm going to start a journal and just look at how I feel in specific situations at the end of the day .. kind of like a 10th step however really checking in with my feelings.
I'm so very grateful that I started this thread because it really has been a very overwhelming weekend for many reasons.
John Bradshaw is at the top of my list to check out. Healing the Child Within .. I actually have read that book back in my early 20's .. guess I better dust that copy off and revisit it. Shame and Guilt Master of Disguise .. I'm going to look around for that one.
Thank you soooo much for the feedback because this is soooo huge and it's interesting.
BIG GIANT Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
This came up in one of my posts last week, and it was a huge a-ha for me, too! It was a big revelation for me to see that my AH is very shame-oriented, while I am guilt-oriented. It helps me to understand a bit more why he says the things he says, which makes it easier for me to not take it personally. And I feel very, very sad for him to live a life where everything mistake means you're a bad person. No wonder he doesn't seek sobriety. If every time he drinks is a great personal failure, and every great personal failure is a sign he is a rotten person, then OF COURSE he always has an excuse not to get sober.
Sorry, I realize now that you and others basically said what I said. I was literally doing five things at once as I posted. Regarding Bradshaw, "Homecoming" is an amazing book but really is gut wrenching.
Just found thread by searching Google for Guilt vs. Shame in Al-Anon. I know it's an old thread, but very very helpful. I'm working on my Fourth step for the first time through and really struggling to understand the differences. Writing about guilt has certainly stirred up some stuff from the past as well as the present and my anxiety has returned, full force today. I had dreams about the Blue Book last night. I think maybe I have a lot of guilt *and* shame... Thanks to everyone for being here.
mrdawn - welcome to MIP! Glad you found us and glad you joining in sharing!
If you look to the top right, there is a step study here if that might be of help. We are only on Step 2 this go-round, but you are more than welcome to look at previous 'rounds' to give you more to think about/see/consider.
Glad you joined us and glad you are here!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
mrdawn - welcome as well .. I appreciate you bumping this back up because I really needed to read this again .. love this posting because of the insights it shared.
Thanks again :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
. I'm am interested to hear the ESH all these wonderful peeps will bring. Love and many hugs! dragonflys
