The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I need feedback on this cuz I seriously don't know and find myself frequently lapsing into advice giving. I could stick "I suggest" in front of all my thoughts but it winds up being the same things much of the time...Advice. Well meaning most of the time, but still advice which is unsolicited. I guess reverting back to my experience and identifying is the safest bet. Along the lines of "this is what I went through and here is how I dealt with it." What do you guys think?
You answered your own question extremely well Pinkchip.... Yes, it's a good reminder to all of us (myself included) that we really do want to share our experience, strength, and hope, and your words of: "this is what I went through and here is how I dealt with it" is perfect....
Advice is dangerous - mainly, we cannot possibly have enough information to properly advise anyone as to what they should or should not do, and if we are controlling their lives/behaviors, then in theory we are also taking responsibility for some of their lives, which is, of course, absurd...
My wise old sponsor used to remind me:
I do not should on anyone, nor do I allow anyone to should on me....
Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
i don't believe there is a difference. you give an advice based on your own exprience, you are sharing. A suggestion is a recommendation based on what you know or experienced. at the end of the day, does it really matter? we are on this board to look for help, support, answers to questions, past, current experiences. do you feel "bad" because you feel you are giving your opinion? you have every right to do so. Communication is really about taking and giving. you give we either take or not. we give you take or not. its a personal opinion. :)
I usually being with "For me..." or 'My experience has been" or "I have found" or "This is what happened and here's what I did...take it or leave it" That way I keep myself safe from giving advice and in keeping with the suggestion basis of the Alanon program.
Regarding advice, if I was looking for it, I can simply turn to my family of origin to get it. I have a reservoir of people there that just want to fix me.
If I have the urge to give advice, that is a warning sign for me. I think...what is going on with me that gives me the desire to take the focus off myself and advise someone on their life? I have found that the solution in the program lies in the suggestion on how someone has implementted an action in their life and it worked or being honest and saying it did not.
If I cant be a good example then I will just have to serve as a horrible warning
CrazyFrog - I respectfully, but strongly, disagree... I think there is a HUGE difference, and it is one of the main foundations of our programs.... The attached is a similar thread that I started in 2010, and it had a lot of great replies to it....
If people on this board want to give their advice to others, please try to do it via PM, rather than using the main board.
Respectfully,
Tom
Gentle reminder re: giving advice....
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Hi gang.... Just concerned a wee bit of the tone of some of the replies lately.... I believe they are all coming from good intentions and heartfelt, but can we please steer clear of advice giving, wherever possible.... Share your E,S,&H, offer helpful options or food for thought, and offer encouragement wherever we can...... Please stop short of "shoulding" anyone.... MIP is an awesome place, and that is because of all the great hearts & experience we have out there....
My wise old sponsor used to tell me: "I don't should on anyone, and don't allow anyone to should on me".....
I think those are wise words
Respectfully, Tom
p.s. if you really feel the need to give directive advice, please choose to do it via PM, rather than the main board.... In this way, the receiver of the advice knows it is just that - advice from one member to the other....
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
i think your dead on...we can only offer our experiences that we went thru and what we did that worked and didnt work...or our experiences period...i look at giving advice like this...throwing in my 2 cents on something that I have no experience with and really until one is in the situation they really dont know what they would do. There are situations I have never been faced with where I have no business saying anything, that to me would be advice....just how I see things..excellent post, ty :)
Hey Mark, my suggestion is to notice how the Big Book reads... it's just one big suggestion. The example of the Big Book is the best teacher, we're merely passing along what was given to us. Who among us would've stayed if we felt they were clubbing us over the head with "advice?" NOT ME.
Just my two cents. Thanks for bringing it to my attention ((my friend))
-- Edited by glad lee on Friday 29th of April 2011 12:11:47 PM
__________________
The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
For me experience, strength and hope is "recovery" and giving advice or thinking I am qualified to do so is what I am here recovering from
The Twelve Steps of Non-Recovery
1. We admitted we were powerless over nothing and no one, that we would manage our lives perfectly and everyone else's too.
2. Came to believe there was no power greater than ourselves and the rest of the world was insane, not too smart and needed our help.
3. Made a decision to have our loved ones and friends and anyone else that would listen turn their will and their lives over to our care
4 Made a searching moral and immoral inventory of everyone we knew.
5. Admitted to the whole world the exact nature of their wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to make others straighten up and do right.
7. Demanded others to either shape up or ship out.
8 Made a list of all persons who had harmed us and became willing to go to any length to get even with them all as long as it didn't include being honest or having a direct confrontation.
9. Got direct revenge on such people whenever possible, except when to do so would cost us our lives, or at the very least a jail sentence.
10. Continued to take inventory of others, and when they were wrong promptly and repeatedly told them about it and made them admit it.
11. Sought through prayer and medication, complaining and nagging to improve our relations with others as we couldn't understand them since we knew best, asking only that they knuckle under and just f***ing do it our way already.
12. Having had a complete physical, emotional and spiritual breakdown as a result of these steps, we promptly got in a relationship, blamed it on someone else and tried to get sympathy and pity in all of our affairs.
Its important to connect with people who have similar troubles and fears in some sort of support structure that keeps the sharing healthy: mainly that there is no cross-talk or advice giving. No cross-talk advice is the rule at Al-Anon meetings. because advice can be shaming. Why dont you just say no? (If I could have just said no, I wouldnt be here!)
As it's laid out on Al-anon websites:
Al-Anon is not a professional program; there are no counselors or professionals giving advice. We try never to give advice. We share our stories and struggles with each other, work the twelve steps, and read Al-Anon literature, and thats how we begin to change our lives.
So giving advice in a coda/alanon venue is like being drunk at an AA meeting and telling the people there how to get sober, I mean giving advice is one of the things we are here to recover from right?
I have found using "I" messages indispensible in recovery, it hits so many recovery buttons no way I can list them all, I identify what emotions I am having, I share my experience, strength and hope, it removes blame, ESH is the very core of the 12 step recovery process, "I" messages ARE recovery for me, "you should" and "you need to" are "relapse" for me, I wish I had a spinning red lights and a siren every time I typed or said those words, because they are me making a wrong turn, a turn I WILL pay for later
After I had been in AA for a great many years and been sober for quite a few 24 hours, I moved to an isolated area, stopped attending meetings and got hopelessly enmeshed with my family of origin, living and working with 3 alcoholics, a junkie, and Satan, and after a few years, after getting incredibly sick myself, I drank, so about a year later, after I had drank my fill and was headed for the exact opposite of "the next right thing" I got sober again, after 6 months I moved home and started attending meetings again in the area I had gotten sober, I immersed myself in studying Codependency but a funny thing started happening, I started running into people I had gotten sober with 15 years before, and they too were sicker then when they had gotten sober, in almost every case they had married an alcoholic, started a family and either "their" alcoholic had relapsed, or just escalated, I was maybe 6 months in to studying codapendency and I noticed they all had one thing in common
They had a complete and utter inability to talk about themselves
How are you? I'd ask, and they'd tell me about their husbands
yeah...but...what's going on with YOU???
more litany of husbands misdeeds
these were POW'ful women, with strong program, people I had spent YEARS with going to meetings and watching work the steps....and they couldn't tell me how they felt or talk about themselves
I took a look at myself and I had spent the last few years like that, if you asked me how I was all I could tell you was the things my mother, my sister, and my girlfriend were doing to me, I couldn't tell you how I was doing because I was gone
So I think "I" messages address that, it -forces- a format in which we HAVE to talk about ourselves, the Al-anon meetings I have attended were awesome for that, it took awhile to get used to, but I "got it" after being corrected a few times
So what is "cross talk"?
Definition of the word Crosstalk:The word has been with us at least since 1887. Websters 10th Edition defines crosstalk as unwanted signals in a communication channel caused by transference of energy from another circuit
Here are some quotes from around the web, some from right here at MIP
Typically "cross talk" refers to people giving direct advice to someone in a meeting. There is a custom in many areas to speak only from one's own experience and to avoid giving direct advice or lecturing a group or individual.
"Cross talk" typically means giving direct advice to others who have already shared, speaking directly to another person rather than to the group, telling another member what to think or how to act
Avoidance of cross talk is considered a safety feature. Unlike group therapy, in Recovery members share their own experience, strength, and hope with one another, rather than telling others what to do or what they should think. In the meetings, members refrain from cross talk. The idea is for members to speak only about their own feelings and experiences and accept without comment what others say because whatever they say is true for them. members work toward taking responsibility in their own lives, rather than giving advice to others.
"Any comments, negative or positive, about another's share, experience, life, program or remarks are cross talk--that is interference."
Cross Talk is conversation between individuals. This includes: Offering advice or directly speaking to an individual member instead of the group
Cross Talk is not referring to someones share if you are moved by it or if it reminds you of your own experience. Nor is sharing your own experience in response to a share. We try to avoid offering unsolicited advice or instruction. Therefore, many meetings discourage Cross Talk.
Specific Examples of Cross Talk: A member shares, I drank alcohol and I dont know whether or not to start my day count over. The next share cross talks, You need to start your day count over or you are going out.
A member shares, and then I went to rehab and it changed my life Another share asks, Excuse me, can you tell me where you went? I need a recommendation.
Examples which are not Cross Talk: Referring to the content of a share: A member shares, I drank alcohol and I dont know whether or not to start my day count over. The next share says, When I was counting days, I drank some a beer. My sponsor and I fought about it. I started my day count over, because I didnt want to question it in my own mind.
Another example: John D. shares, I am having a really hard time not picking up. Another shares, It was good for me to hear John. It helps me to know other people feel like I do. That is not Cross Talk.
When I cross talk I'm no longer sharing the message of recovery, I'm telling somebody what "I" think "they should do". and like Canadian Guy and Jerry frequently say, "shoulding" someone is one of the most unhealthy things we can do to somebody else or ourselves there is, personally I consider it a full blown relapse
-- Edited by linbaba on Friday 29th of April 2011 12:30:24 PM
Seriously...........LOL that was one of the funniest things I have ever seen..........so true.......HILARIOUS............OMG LOL....been there and done that ...HA !
In Al-Anon we share our experience, strength, and hope. I also need a reminder that I might have walked in similar shoes as someone else, but I am not "walking in their shoes". We are all here and in the rooms of Al-Anon for ourselves first and to give back to others what the program has given us. I "try my best" to do that without expressing my opinion here and in meetings. Though well intended I'm sure there are times when I fail.
There is one exception. When I read a post, or hear someone in a f2f meeting talk of being abused be it verbal, emotional, or physical, and someones life or safety is involved. In Al-Anon we are allowed to give them the information and advice needed to ensure their well being. Abuse in any form is unacceptable and uncalled for regardless of the situation and should never be tolerated. A year ago when a lady walked in our Tue. night meeting and asked, "Is this an Al-Anon meeting"?.....She had a cast on her ring finger and a black eye. Her fringer was broken when her drunk AH was trying to pull her wedding ring off because he didn't want to be married to her anymore. After he broke her finger and still couldn't get the ring off, he punched her in the face several times. There are exceptions.
HUGS, RLC
-- Edited by RLC on Friday 29th of April 2011 12:44:00 PM
RLC wrote:There is one exception. When I read a post, or hear someone in a f2f meeting talk of being abused be it verbal, emotional, or physical, and someones life or safety is involved. In Al-Anon we are allowed to give them the information and advice needed to ensure their well being. Abuse in any form is unacceptable and uncalled for regardless of the situation and should never be tolerated. A year ago when a lady walked in our Tue. night meeting and asked, "Is this an Al-Anon meeting"?.....She had a cast on her ring finger and a black eye. Her fringer was broken when her drunk AH was trying to pull her wedding ring off because he didn't want to be married to her anymore. After he broke her finger and still couldn't get the ring off, he punched her in the face several times. There are exceptions.
HUGS, RLC
I was a member of another Al-anon site some years back quite a bit larger then this one and we'd get quite a few victims of domestic violence coming in, and one of the moderators actually worked at a DV shelter, we'd get pretty excited and the site would go into "crisis mode" with many of the members including myself going into the "you should" mode and finally he posted this as some tips when dealing with a victim of domestic violence, it REALLY brought me up short and made me take a good hard look at myself, when I was "you shoulding" a victim of Domestic Violence I was, in a way behaving EXACTLY like her domestic abuser, I was telling her what to do and what to think
This gave me food for thought
The following are some tips from the book by Lundy Bancroft called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. There's a section devoted to "Dealing with your own frustrations" and "What if She Doesn't Believe She is Being Abused?" that are also very helpful. Personally, I recommend buying or borrowing the book from the library. It's an eye-opening read. On to the book......
If you would like to make a significant difference in the life of an abused woman you care about, keep the following principle fresh in your mind..."Your goal is to be the complete opposite of what the abuser is".
The Abuser: Pressures her severely
So You Should: Be patient. Remember that it takes time for an abused woman to sort out her confusion and figure out how to handle her situation. It is not helpful for her to try to follow 'your' timetable for when she should stand up to her partner, leave him, call the police, or whatever step you want her to take. You need to respect her judgement regarding when she is ready to take action - something the abuser never does.
The Abuser: Talks down to her
So you Should: Address her as an equal. Avoid all traces of condescension or superior knowledge in your voice. This caution applies just as much or more to professionals. If you speak to an abused woman as if you are smarter or wiser than she is, or as if she is going through something that could never happen to you, then you inadvertently confirm exactly what the abuser has been telling her, which is that she is beneath him. Remember, your actions speak louder than your words.
The Abuser: Thinks he knows what is good for her better than she does
So You Should: Treat her as the expert on her own life. Don't assume that you know what she needs to do. I have sometimes given abused women suggestions that I thought were exactly right but turned out to be terrible for that particular situation. Ask her what she thinks might work and, without pressuring her, offer suggestions, respecting her explanations for why certain courses of action would not be helpful. Don't tell her what to do.
The Abuser: Dominates conversations
So You Should: Listen more and talk less. The temptation may be great to convince her what a 'jerk' he is, to analyze his motives, to give speeches covering entire chapters of this book. But talking too much inadvertently communicates to her that your thoughts are more important than hers, which is exactly how the abuser treats her. If you want her to value her own feelings and opinions, then you have to show her that you value them.
The Abuser: Believes he has the right to control her life
So You Should: Respect her right to self-determination. She is entitled to make decisions that are not exactly what you would choose, including the decision to stay with her abusive partner or to return to him after a separation. You can't convince a woman that her life belongs to her if you are simultaneously acting like it belongs to you. Stay by her even when she makes choices that you don't like.
The Abuser: Thinks for her
So You Should: Think with her. Don't assume the role of teacher or rescuer. Instead, join forces with her as a respectful and equal team member.
Notice that being the opposite of the abuser does not simply mean saying the opposite of what he says. If he beseeches her with, "Don't leave me, don't leave me," and you stand on the other side badgering her with, "Leave him, leave him," she will feel that you're much like him; you are both pressuring her to accept your judgement of what she should do. Neither of you is asking the empowering question, "What do you want to do?"
frankly when I am "giving advice" I hit every one of those "the abuser does this" and that made me feel pretty ashamed, I don't want to be that person...you know?
made me rethink some things that I did, and made me want to do them differently
When I got here, advice giving was one of the things that made me sick. I had a solution to everyone's problems. Thing is, I couldn't take my own advice.
One of the things I wanted most when I got here was advice. I wanted someone to tell me what to do. I had no idea where to even start with making a decision for myself. One of the biggest aspects of my recovery is advice giving. As in, I don't do it anymore. By shifting the focus to my own actions instead of trying to fix other people, I've become able to consider what I want and then act accordingly. The program has given me the opportunity to learn how to choose my own actions. Although the choices were there all along, I never saw them before.
In my opinion, the difference in advice giving and suggestion is motive. Advice giving - even if it's disguised in a fashion that doesn't contain the word "should" - has more of an emotional investment to it for the giver. The person giving the advice wants the other person to take it. This is different from suggestion, which has a more "take it or leave it, if it helps great" feel. Much less of an emotional investment - sure I want the other person to get well, but I understand that the other person's situation may be different from mine so what I did in my life isn't applicable, or the other person may just not be ready, or the other person may hate my suggestion. Fine. I know that I put it out there, and that is as far as my business goes. What the other person decides to do with the suggestion is their business.
As always, this is just my .02. Take what you like and leave the rest.
The short of it for me is that advice comes from my head and suggestions from my feet. Advice is the talk and experience the walk...the just for me; my experiences. I know what it was like for me, what I found out and what I do now. There is lots of information in the literature and in the rooms about advising; saying what I think rather than what I have personal experience with. I honor the humility of those who rely on their experiences and who will say "I don't know" to another member in need when being asked for help don't have any experience for solution. I was helped by the experiences of the membership and not by the thinking.
I cannot ever know exactly what another member is going thru. If I give advise that becomes a "shot in the dark" and if the other member attempts to use my advise and it doesn't work out who is to blame? If it does work out who takes the credit?
I hold on to the memory of a lesson from my elder sponsor in early recovery. "Remember Jerry the rooms are filled with alot of crazy people just like yourself who are here for the same reasons...We need help." Yeppers I do come from alcoholism (not was'm) and sometimes I have to practice..."I don't know...I suggest you ask another member."
I needed to read this today, I have fallen into shoulding people and I know better! I am stepping down off my matchbox now and see that a little knowledge for me can be a dangerous thing if I tend to focus on fixing others with it, where I am not even fixing myself with it, hmmmm thanks for the reminder!
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God grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
I would like to make it clear in my earlier post I was not suggesting the woman I referred to was or ever would be given advice to leave her husband, I never have nor would I ever do that. She stated her husband had been drinking heavy all day, been pushing her around and she and her children were scared to return but had no where to go. A member in the meeting offered to find her a safe house for abused women for the night if she was interested. When offered the lady got up and hugged the members neck. I think the lady was given advice in the form of support for her own well being and for her children, but never in any way told she should leave her husband.
I was an expert in giving everyone advise. I knew what everyone should do to solve thei problems and became furious when they did not follow my instructions.
When I arrived in alanon it was SUGGESTED that since I did not know what anyone else need to do in their life , I should refrain from giving advise and just suggest program tools. I was told that I was only responsible for my own life and that this was a fellowship of equals.
Everyone had the answers for their life within and alanon tools--steps slogans, sponser were all developed so that each member could uncovers their own answers when they were ready and grow into their new life
It was also suggested that I only suggest program tools and my own ESH when sharing with another member.
This way I stay as an equal and not an expert. I discarded my expert hat long ago.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
-- Edited by hotrod on Friday 29th of April 2011 07:15:26 PM
Hello Mark, My personal definitions: If my mind says .. the best course of action for so n so is .. that is advice and I am giving it cause I know best. (Ego) If my mind says ... so n so could try, maybe seek help from or there are these options ... it is a suggestion. (borderline advice but from love not ego .. slippery slope) If my mind says .. what would I do in that situation, when I was in that situation, if I could do this again differently I would have or based on my meditations and experiences I have these thoughts... is sharing and at the same time recieving more than I am giving from reflecting on myself. (Bonus )
Dear pinkchip. I am glad you posted this thread because I have been struggling very much with the same issue. I am fairly new here and am trying to learn. I don't post unless I feel that it is something that I have had experience with or have gone through it myself. I try to be very mindful....but I still find it hard and am uncertain at times.
Lin - lol, the reversal of the 12 steps is hilarious! I was there and reading that now makes me think about how insane I was.
All I have to add is that the non advise giving is one of the things I love about this program, I attribute my growth to it - The fact that I was 'allowed' to recover at my own pace, without judgement, without pressure, without expectations. It's the exact opposite of the sick people in my life who, if I allow them to, pull me back to feeling insane as a result of their unsolicited, inexperienced, holier than thou advise giving.
For me, the difference lies in intention. If I give advise, I am wanting this person do follow it, or hoping they do... or think they should and that would be best for them cause I know everything and can fix everyone! Or, can I share relatable experience and offer what I found worked for me, period.
